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98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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Fournbr3
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Jan 1, 2011, 12:51 AM
Post #1 of 16
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98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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OK car sounds like a hammer when I'm trying to crank...the solenoid is trying to engage making a rapid bang, bang, bang noise. I had originally bumped the starter with a hammer as an old trick to see if the starter was bad. The car started right up, telling me I had a starter problem. I replaced the starter and the last few inches of solenoid wire due to a known corrosion problem. Then...no start. I checked voltage at the battery 12.46, and at the solenoid wire at the starter with it disconnected and key to crank, 12.45, and with the wire connected to the starter, 7.5 or so on and off. (As it bangs) If I use a jumper and jump the two connections at the starter the engine cranks right up. This tells me battery and both pos and neg cables are good. I also swapped the starter relay with others with no help. Am I having theft deterrent problems possibly due to the key chip? What would this normally do if that were the problem? I only have one key to the car so I don't have a way to confirm that being the problem. I do know I've wasted money on a starter. Any ideas anyone?
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Hammer Time
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Jan 1, 2011, 6:14 AM
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Re: 98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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Your going to have to back trace the circuit for the trigger wire. You are getting too much voltage drop on the trigger wire for some reason.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Fournbr3
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Jan 1, 2011, 8:27 AM
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Re: 98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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Thanks, I have traced it back to the starter relay in the underhood panel and I'll try and jump that to eliminate more even though I have swapped relays. Would I even be getting any "clicking" at all from the starter if the key microchip was bad?
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 1, 2011, 11:25 AM
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Re: 98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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Check the viability of the power inputs to that relay.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Fournbr3
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Jan 4, 2011, 11:29 AM
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Re: 98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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Sorry, Ive been gone and will check the car again today, thanks for the help.
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Fournbr3
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Jan 4, 2011, 9:43 PM
Post #6 of 16
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Re: 98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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I think I have found my problem area. Although the battery tests good and there are no dead cells I do have something draining it. This is allowing the voltage to engage the starter solenoid and when the starter motor tries to turn the voltage drops to 7-8 and the solenoid releases...thus the bang, bang, bang. I have a healthy spark when I put on the negative battery cable, voltmeter showing battery voltage between neg post and neg terminal while separated. Car starts fine with battery charger hooked up. So now I pull each fuse, one at a time to find the drain, nothing. Then I remove each relay, one at a time, nothing. Because of the healthy spark I know it is not a clock or small accessory causing the drain. I don't have a schematic for this car as I am wondering what can be powered at this point that I haven't disconnected? I also disconnected the alternator in case it was faulty, but it made no difference. There is something that I am missing obviously. Any more ideas?
THANKS!!!
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 5, 2011, 1:51 AM
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Re: 98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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Quote">>This is allowing the voltage to engage the starter solenoid and when the starter motor tries to turn the voltage drops to 7-8"<<
If this can start normally as said with charger on it or should say crank normally then the amps delivered seem inadequate if voltage drops to 7-8 during cranking. Generally a weak battery AMPS wise but could still show proper voltage just sitting there. Not sure how the battery was tested but should have been load tested,
T
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 5, 2011, 5:19 AM
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Re: 98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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I don't know how you tested that battery but I can't pretty much tell it's a bad battery without even being there.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Fournbr3
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Jan 5, 2011, 8:18 AM
Post #9 of 16
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Re: 98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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Thanks Tom, it was load tested with MY load tester and I also did a hydrometer test on each cell just for the heck of it...passed with flying colors. After having battery disconnected for a while and with it fully charged I can put the cable on (with a bigger than normal spark in my opinion) and the car starts. I know I have a drain I just haven't found it yet. Gary
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Fournbr3
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Jan 5, 2011, 8:23 AM
Post #10 of 16
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Re: 98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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I think I misled you guys when I measured the 7-8 volts as the battery WAS undercharged at that time...that was before it went on the charger.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 5, 2011, 9:22 AM
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Re: 98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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OK: You mentioned up top post that this battery when triggered right at the solenoid did crank the engine which is a fair sign of it being adequate but still not certain.
The drain: Battery could be draining itself! They can get minor or major shorts inside or wet and dirty on top between posts can show OHMs being transferred.
More: Batteries don't like going low or dead. That takes life expectancy out of them or worse can kill a good one.
How old is this battery - they are usually marked with the date they were made with eight encrypted code or something like "B-5" which would mean February, 2005 for example and so on like that. After about 4 years IMO they aren't dependable and can be erratic. By nature they flake with age and use and there's space at the bottom to collect some. Too much they can short out and the pile of flakes move and take a charge again.
Take voltage readings from pos terminal at starter to known good ground and see what voltage drop it may show when cranking. Might be lots different that checking at the battery itself.
Cables may look good on the outside but under gauge on inside and intermittent too.
I know it's giving you a hard time but there's still more to check out,
T
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Fournbr3
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Jan 5, 2011, 10:15 AM
Post #12 of 16
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Re: 98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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Tom, Thanks again for the reply. I will do the voltage check from the starter as you said as soon as I can...not sure about today. The cables are clean, have been re-cleaned and the battery is two years old. I keep going back to the drain however. I left the cable off yesterday and am curious as to if it will start when I get to it. (It's at a friends house). I'll let you know. I'm 99% sure its not the Bat but I'll run checks, Thanks and I really like the American flag in your responses! Gary
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 5, 2011, 10:53 AM
Post #13 of 16
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Re: 98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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Just notes for now:
*Batteries can be funky or bad brand new - it happens.
*That corroded connection if not real good now or a new end properly spliced in could be acting up?
* Old day high end copper cables are mostly done with by 1998 - damn. Hey! Engines naturally vibrate some and good old fine stranded copper used to take that tons better.
* Real lead cable clamps got a better connection at battery - not used TMK anymore.
* Gauge of wire used needs be correct. Damn vehicles get away with the minimum IMO as it saves costs.
* Back: Batteries can get dropped in handling before you ever got it - not good.
* Said already - the more times a battery goes low the faster they will give out. ANYTHING INTERMITTENT WILL DRIVE ANYONE NUTS!
* Drain: Car will consume some milliamps for a while when shut down but shouldn't be killing the battery. Old method testing of pulling fuses would still find a large drain.
<> Remember, AMPS is like volume and volts is the push force. A dinky motorcycle's battery has the volts but not the amps to start almost all car engines even if it's volt testing etc., tested fine.
Keep at it. Would be nice to just test another battery known good but not all can do that.
If this battery now can lose charge while disconnected from fully charged it is a problem,
T
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Fournbr3
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Jan 9, 2011, 9:12 PM
Post #14 of 16
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Re: 98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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 All fixed, but I can't believe it at all...You both said it was a battery problem, so I took a battery out of a car I wasn't using and put it in the Lincoln. It started right up. I then let it sit overnight...it started up again...another night and it started again. I had the other battery on a slow charge overnight and I checked it again, with my carbon pile load battery tester. It still tested good. I then took it to a friends shop and asked him to check it with his tester. What he used was a digital tester that required him to put in the CCA rating of the battery and when tested it would tell the CCA output of the battery. When this test was made it showed that the battery had only 300 CCA capacity...all without actually loading the battery. I then used HIS load tester and it tested the same as mine and said the battery was good! So how do the new testers operate and why does the load tester still show that the battery is good? I'm normally pretty good at electrical stuff but this really baffled me. Anyway a new battery is in the car and it has been fine. Thanks for the help!
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jan 10, 2011, 5:51 AM
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Re: 98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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The newest technology is "conductance" testing
Here's some info about it
Conductance is a unique electrical measurement that determines the ability of a battery to transmit current through its internal structure. As such, it gives a direct relationship to battery power. Internal conductive battery components include battery grids, active material and connectors that conduct electronic current as well as sulfuric acid electrolyte that conducts ionic current between and within the plates and plate separators.
Conductance is measured by probing the battery with a small AC current ripple that generates a small AC voltage response. Conductance is the relative ratio of the variation in current with the variation in voltage. It is a powerful tool for providing rapid and pertinent battery information without the need of discharging the battery with high currents that can be dangerous and leave the battery in a depleted condition.
As a battery ages, its internal components gradually wear out through corrosion, disintegration and shedding. When this happens, its conductance drops until it reaches a point at which the performance of the battery becomes significantly degraded. Thus, without running extensive discharge tests, conductance can be used, together with other battery information, to rapidly and safely determine a functional battery’s state of health and fitness for further service. Conductance can also be used to detect cell defects, shorts, and open circuits that can cause the battery to fail in a precipitous manner.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Fournbr3
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Jan 11, 2011, 1:07 PM
Post #16 of 16
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Re: 98 lincoln mark 8 no crank...Help!
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Looks like i need to invest in a new tool...Thanks again. GR
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