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Brenda
New User
Apr 8, 2007, 2:54 PM
Post #1 of 9
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Hi All. I'm hoping someone can help us diagnose the problem. I have a 1994 Mercury Villager V6. The van had been running fine then one day we drove approx. 4 miles, stopped in the post office, came out and the van would not start. Wouldn't even crank. My husband got out and jiggled the battery cables and the van started. We figured it was the battery or dirty battery cables. Got home, cleaned everything, the van won't start. Hasn't started since. When I turn the key on, I hear the fuel pump engage, then when turn the key to start, I get two (almost simultaneous) clicks. If I'm in the van, it sounds like it is coming from under the dash. If I'm in front of the van, it sounds like one is coming from the top right (close to the air filter) and the other from the middle to bottom left (close to the distributor). We have replaced the battery, the positive battery cable, and had the starter and starter solenoid tested (both ok). Any help you could give us to diagnose and repair the van would be greatly appreciated.
Brenda
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DanD
Veteran
/ Moderator
Apr 8, 2007, 5:11 PM
Post #2 of 9
(1833 views)
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Re: Van won't start
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What tests are you willing and capable of doing on this vehicle; what test equipment do you have or are willing to buy, borrow or steal; well maybe not steal (LOL) to do the tests required to find the problem?
It’s not that I don’t want to help; it’s just that we’ll need specifics as in does the starter motor’s solenoid or its relays; are they getting a signal from the ignition switch?
Do you want to learn how to read a wiring diagram and how this particular system is wired? Not all starting systems are created equal; different manufactures along with their different models in their line-up of vehicles, throw their own twist on the systems.
Basic things like doing a voltage drop test across any type of electrical circuit; can be a difficult thing to understand, if not shown in person.
So if you’re willing, I am?
Sorry I don’t have; it’s this, go and replace that type of answer but it sounds like you’ve done the regular things; battery, battery connections, so now we’re into the nitty-gritty of this problem. Again if you’re willing, I am but be ready for some demands from me as in test results.
Dan
Canadian "EH"
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Brenda
New User
Apr 8, 2007, 6:08 PM
Post #3 of 9
(1830 views)
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Re: Van won't start
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Dan,
I know my husband has purchased 3 or 4 different types of testers. I know he has a voltmeter and some kind of continuity tester and circuit tester. Anything else that is necessary, my Dad may have. I also may be able to borrow anything else we need. My husband is determined to get my van fixed.
Thanks for your help
Brenda
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naterosy
Novice
Apr 8, 2007, 6:23 PM
Post #4 of 9
(1828 views)
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Re: Van won't start
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Your starter circuit has two parts. Apparantly your getting some power from the battery, you said that the starter and starter solenoid checked out. You also stated that you changed the battery and the positive battery cable. That would leave the ignition circuit.. if the car will not crank, first check available voltage at the B+ terminal on the solenoid. If its close to 12.45 to 12.6 volts your good. I would guess that your nuetral safety switch might ge going bad or in the acutal ignition itself on the steering column. Have those two things checked out and you should find the problem
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DanD
Veteran
/ Moderator
Apr 9, 2007, 5:44 AM
Post #5 of 9
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Re: Van won't start
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Let’s begin by explaining how this starter circuit is supposed to work.
The main cables from the battery; negative cable from the battery connects to the engine block and to the body, supplying a large path to ground for all engine and body mounted electrical devices. The large positive cable connects directly to the starter motor’s solenoid’s battery terminal supplying high amperage carrying connection for the starter motor. Approximately 300 amps on initial activation (from stopped) and then 150 amps during cranking.
The smaller battery positive cables feed the different electrical devices via fuses or fuse links. One of which is a white wire going to the left (drivers side) under-hood fuse panel, through a 30-amp fuse, leaving the panel as a white/purple wire. This white/purple wire goes to the ignition switch that feeds the different circuits; including the starter inhibit relay through a red wire when the ignition switch is turned to the start position. When the inhibit relay closes (energized) power passes from the red wire to a red/white wire sending power to the starter motor’s solenoid. When the solenoid is energized it pulls the starter drive gear into the engine’s ring gear; closes a set of large contacts in the solenoid and allows the starter motor to begin turning.
Now there’s the other part of the starting circuit that is used for safety reasons and that is the manual lever position switch or better known as the neutral safety switch (NSS). It’s there to stop you from starting the engine in any other gearshift position other then park or neutral.
When the ignition switch is turned from off through run to the start position; power is sent to the under-dash fuse panel’s 10-amp ignition fuse leaving the fuse panel on a Lt green wire which feeds a number of different devices including the NSS switch. This power passes through the NSS to a Lt green/black wire and goes to the inhibit relay energizing the pull-in coil closing the contacts between the red and red/with wires which in turn energizes the starter motor’s solenoid.
The inhibit relay in the way that this wiring diagram below shows it, seems to be a redundant relay? It maybe there for anti theft reasons on some models; hopefully we won’t have to go there because that’ll open up a whole different can of worm. LOL
Let the questions begin?
As for the place to begin checking that would be at the starter motor’s solenoid red/wire wire connection.
With a test light connected to a known good ground (battery neg. term) and the test light probe at the red/white connection. Ignition turned to the start position the test light should light. If so that tells us everything from the fuses, switches, relays are ok; if it doesn’t light work back through the circuit until you get the test light to light.
Why I say to use a test light, it puts a small load on the circuit and takes approximately an amp of current flow to light the light. If there’s a bad connection somewhere that will only allow lets say less then ¼ of an amp to flow the test light will not light or light very dimly. A voltmeter only reads voltage and as long as there’s even the slightest of connection there the meter will still show battery voltage. That’s unless this bad connection is to the point of going open when a load is applied to the circuit.
Let me know what you find.
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
(This post was edited by DanD on Apr 10, 2007, 4:16 AM)
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PTEC
User
Apr 17, 2007, 5:47 AM
Post #6 of 9
(1784 views)
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Re: Van won't start
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lol dan be easy on the girl. replace the starter relay and tell us what happen..the clicking pretty much gave it away. stuff click when voltage is low such as a relay. but just replace the mentioned relay and come back and tell us what happen. if that not the problem then now you've got a new relay. if you want to do this at home, thats the best we can do.
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DanD
Veteran
/ Moderator
Apr 18, 2007, 4:42 AM
Post #7 of 9
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Re: Van won't start
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No LOL at you PTEC
If you are an automotive technician, I hope that isn’t how you go about repairing the vehicles you’re given to work on. Throwing parts at a car until you trip over the problem may have worked in the past but today will get you a reputation; a reputation that most tech’s don’t want.
Yes my last post on this problem was over the top for someone that was looking for an answer such as yours but it was posted in this manner on purpose.
To show people what a tech has to know and what we have to do too properly diagnose a problem. Even something as simple as a starting circuit takes research of repair information and a set of strategy based diagnostic procedures.
Sorry for the abruptness of this reply but until technicians throw their egos away and replace it with pride in doing the job right the first time; we’ll never gain the public’s respect.
If any of the other mod’s here want to delete this post that’s fine with me.
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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way2old
Veteran
/ Moderator
Apr 18, 2007, 9:49 AM
Post #8 of 9
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Re: Van won't start
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until technicians throw their egos away and replace it with pride in doing the job right the first time; we’ll never gain the public’s respect.
Agree with you 100% Dan. I have worked close to if not over 40 years trying to do that. Guess we need to have a shop together somewhere. Stick to your guns on that Dan.
Being way2old is why I need help from younger minds
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Apr 18, 2007, 12:19 PM
Post #9 of 9
(1769 views)
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Re: Van won't start
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No fighting boyz. PTEC, look back and see where Brenda said her husband was determined to fix this problem and she's being very resourceful to come here for help and Dan bent over backwards to provide about all the information and a diagram of how it's wired. Who could ask for more?
What's better is someone else surfing for help may find this and have the direction of what to do and not even have to ask.
Dan, posts stay put as far as I'm concerned,
T
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