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Stuck at home, luckily/ starter problems
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 24, 2022, 8:54 AM
Post #26 of 52
(600 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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? Just 10 more AMPS should mean much IMO. Where are you attaching your charger?
I take it you read 10V during cranking with lights and heater blower is a load on? That shouldn't stop the starter from working properly IMO watch all my vehicles voltage drops thru power ports or cig light live!
In the coldest of what winter throws still stay around there I mean real below zero!
So keep going the power/push = AMPS isn't getting to starter or able to return ground.
Already said I think that it's OK to harmlessly add grounds just know where you did isn't harming anything at all.
I'd say toss both cables for better but I'm not finding pre-made ones anymore you make your own ends for battery it was Wally World just happened to have a double eyelet cable plenty long, copper seen was good. Haven't used it yet but ready - duh.
Back, the wing nut type ends you mentioned may have some unseen flaw you'll see it on a voltmeter. Have a helper crank engine you do the watching or where it drops out.
I know this is giving you fits locations of how routed matter.
ONE LAST A SAFETY THING! Pos cable at battery must be covered by substantial plastic or something. If that came lose and hit body metal you'll have a real problem - a dead short if for any reason could be a disaster.
We'll find and fix this I know room for testing is a problem.
Like NAPAs premade jumper wire is the fine gauge copper wire but also costs check them out for "now" pricing changing by the hour it seems!
T
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greasy one
User
May 24, 2022, 8:58 AM
Post #27 of 52
(600 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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The car is sometimes missing a beat when hitting the key but is much better. The battery is reading around 75% on the charger, and not 100, like yesterday but the car sounds great and fires up again on its own. I wonder if 1 of the several ground wires did have a problem.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 24, 2022, 12:05 PM
Post #28 of 52
(593 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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From post #7, let's fix this already.
Quote you ">Sears charger, also 40 yrs old, from the Folks. Put on 60A<"
What does this charger allow you to see Sears sold zillions of them?
It's probably fine age not that issue. Some color chart or dial to say it's 75% just isn't adding up.
* Don't use 60A setting of chargers nor put new batteries in without a slower charge. Yes, most would start then overwork alternators isn't good for either battery or alternator not the issue IMO.
* Wally World is great (here) about pro-rating that battery this time look at when new one was made it's either clear or in code there usually a sticker with month and year, some a letter and # like B-9 means date it was made = February, 2019.
My experience with them already said is handling from new to stocking them is lousy. Much higher failure rates than others.
When a battery goes low and or is charged either normally or with you charger you are making I'll call it slag or dandruff is how they age being charged in cars or by machine. Their normal dependable life is about 4 years if nothing went wrong.
That pile of "dandruff" will touch the bottom of the plates and either be an internal drain like you left a dome light on or surprise you and short out inside itself!
I know saving a buck is great we all want to but fast charging, improper handling really speeds the problems up.
Yikes - a pandemic who knows how careful anyone was all along the way.
Those flakes are like peeling leaves of a head of lettuce I think you are just speeding it up.
It could read properly and be 1/2 its initial rating.
That's the most common way batteries (lead/acid) lose it or would last forever - not really.
See if they'll take it back for part credit or full towards another this time charge that one slow 2AMP charger setting leave it for a day till you get a "done" something from that charger.
Remove charger and wait an hour or so just read it's voltage which is normally 12.6V just sitting there not in car at all.
If that fails that, your reading isn't correct or battery has a problem, lots do.
Bet it works if so be done with this.
Doesn't mean neglect of cable ends and cables if way overworked get hot you can sometimes stretch an area not enough wire is still intact most likely.
That should end it.
Moral of the mess is when a failure other things take a hit so if not all up to par at the same time problems snowball like this and cause erratic diagnosis if it just sometimes behaves.
Allowing a battery to go low 4 any reason is taking life out of it two three times you killed it is likely.
Prices for all these items are up batteries outdoes known inflation the handlers most of the reason.
All known good or this game will start all over again.
See if Wally World will give you at least some credit there's nobody there that would know or test it out but do want it back lead is important to recycle I don't think more new lead is being made it's still in dead ones.
I want you to win this Ping-Pong match we've said a lot you've been thru hell with this time to end it so SUGGESTION NOW IS TAKE THAT ONE BACK.
If no help or credit take it to exchange and pay more, get exact fit and CCAs required should end this,
All the other things already said apply I just think bad luck is playing with you cables still in question?
There once were overloads of unsold new cars with your problems under warranty but left to go dead was just covered up with a charger till you quit complaining,
This isn't rocket science just all things know right all at once,
Tom
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greasy one
User
May 24, 2022, 3:38 PM
Post #29 of 52
(587 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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Got a new Diehard from Advanced. Still not right, but better. The large hot wire going from battery to starter solenoid has a rubber boot that covers the connection. Something burned a big hole through it on the smaller end, and will let water onto the crimped connector , not really onto the solenoid but I could see where corrosion could have formed. I did try to bypass this wire with my jumpers but it didnt help. I think I will make up a nice 4' section of heavy wire jumpers and try again now .
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 25, 2022, 3:44 AM
Post #30 of 52
(570 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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OK, No waste I do like my local Advance has a lot of stuff others just don't have.
What's with this burned hole? You mean an OE boot (red) to cover bat+ terminal? You said before there was a wing nut as if some deep cycle battery would use could be fine just can't let things hit metal.
If you are sure it's burned not rubbed or from jump starting that's the weak spot!!
I'd be tossing both cables for a low # gauge meaning fatter just to look at then what is probably there. It doesn't have to be 1 gauge is FAT was for 6V vehicles or really great jumper cable wire.
Ask at the Advance if a thing like the one I go to not often are remarkably helpful if not thru them should say who they hunted for me and had it at their store next day at worst! IDK if some company policy or what they did buy the Die Hard name - I knew that much.
You said worried about water getting in? Of course it could more to buy is battery grease AKA dialectic grease is a silicone grease for electrical things use that on the starter motor end and negative cable end of course can get soaked if only super heavy dew.
Fix that end or let Advance look right at it they do that stuff as well as other places,
Tom
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greasy one
User
May 25, 2022, 5:21 AM
Post #31 of 52
(561 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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No the hole is at the starter end and there for years, before me. I slappped some liquid tape over the hole but water has been on the connector end for a long time and maybe time to make a new wire. I hope so
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 25, 2022, 5:41 AM
Post #32 of 52
(554 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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Time to crap or get off the pot. Toss them if not tended to OE wouldn't last.
I know it's fussy for you to do that but something has to give not just web talk if too much for you + tools send it out, state or show what it does if it still will would be obvious to a real tech. I can't replace seeing and testing it myself no matter how good you are with pics.
This would be routine probably a chargeable 1 hour plus making up better stuff and costs of those things.
It's done all the time we've fussed with it too long if my guesses aren't right I'm sorry. I've discussed more about how it works than most could read,
Tom
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greasy one
User
May 25, 2022, 10:37 AM
Post #33 of 52
(545 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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I found a couple more grounds and made sure clean. Put a 2nd main hot lead for more power to starter and it is firing right up. Thanks for the advice, it seems to always help to figure things out.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 25, 2022, 10:59 AM
Post #34 of 52
(540 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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OK! Sounds great! Doubling up is fine just careful of routing and other things.
One more while here this sounds great and over for a good long time. Add time by greasing all those connections I use both the CRC white lithium grease or the "electric" grease on a stick and flux brush anything and everything that's moving also or you might be there like flare nuts to brake lines, fuel lines trans cooler lines lighter spray do the door hinges and latches. Do that if good now will stay that way and come apart if not you the next person to work on it.
Cheap prevention or if lousy looking now sometimes retro works.
I'll close it out as solved you know what you did worked this can be re-opened upon request,
Tom
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 27, 2022, 1:33 PM
Post #35 of 52
(502 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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RE-OPENED Greasy one:
Here was your note not me below>>
>Hate to do it but my " Stuck at home" is exactly the same. Feel free to copy into post . Starter is clicking upon turning key and firing whenever it catches. Just like a bad starter. Could 3 be bad?. Im just at Advanced. I want a little connector. The guy matches it with a new starter and has a fancy machine to test a new starter and trys it for some reason. Thats broke too. So I tried jumping battery ground to the starter, with heavy duty jumper. Nothing. Jumping the two positives, on the starter, with the key on and it fires fine. It seems like before I replaced the first starter.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 27, 2022, 1:51 PM
Post #36 of 52
(497 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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MACHINE IS DOWN - That's all I ever hear.
Wherever you are now would like you test jump it out of car and watch it throw little gear out is the "starter drive" it knows to throw out that gear and spring loaded to return when you let go of key.
At this point I'd do this there holding it FIRMLY with a towel and watch out also it will likely do a sudden jump on you or the place. If not allowed with one of their new batteries or even a jumper box for power.
If somehow a whole bunch really were bad they need to know it.
That gear (used to buy just those) has to be greased or messes up in that case doesn't return.
Out of car they really react so with all caution.
I still want to remind you POSITIVE POWER is only as good as the same ability to return GROUND back to battery.
That's how it works - period.
If you are doubled up at the car this isn't making sense so just maybe these are all bad at one place, one error by a rebuilder. The drive if new should show no wear on teeth of it out of box but they love to cheat or rebuilder just made the thing way too tight or something.
I used to do just the drives if costly ask if they have one there separately sold.
It's gone on way too long the excuse of the machine thing is apparently universal fancy it should provide the load. My suggestion on floor is no-load so all may work??
For all this BS do they offer a brand new one discounted to same price? No harm in asking,
Tom
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Double J
Veteran
/ Moderator
May 27, 2022, 2:21 PM
Post #37 of 52
(490 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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This is a long confusing reread.
Seems all over the place
It may have been asked or mentioned.
Have you confirmed the Click sound is actually coming from the starter?
Or is it possibly the Relay Clicking, guessing this has a starter relay, Don't have a diagram on this.
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Tom or HT may have mentioned this also, Have you taken a jumper cable, just one of the cables , and ran it from the battery negative to engine block ground?
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greasy one
User
May 27, 2022, 4:22 PM
Post #38 of 52
(474 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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I can't say what the clicking actually is, but it sounds like the starter. Jumping the 2 hot wires works great. I ran a solid ground from the new battery to a bolt on the starter which is a ground, and tried starting, the same. I thought the small connector to the solenoid might be the problem so thats why I went to buy one. There is not much left that is causing my nightmare.The first 2 starters came from one place and the third one from Oreilly. They put out a supposed print out of a fancy test, showing it passed. The starter is in car. I want to look at another print out and see if all the dozens of checks are not just the same paper. At least now I can jump the starter easily with the exposed wire on the small hot connector cause I tried to pull it off the connector, but it didnt pull out. I jumped from the exposed wire and bypassed the connector and no luck so I just snapped the old one back in place
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Double J
Veteran
/ Moderator
May 27, 2022, 5:54 PM
Post #39 of 52
(464 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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This should be a simple diagnosis. Simple Circuit
Sounds like you've gotten some great advice
You've eliminated most everything
You seemed to be focused on it being the starter still. If it jumps easily every time, not the starter IMO
As advised by HT and Tom, You may have a connection problem, guessing right at the small solenoid wire
Do you have a test light?
Take off the small wire , hook up a test light to it and see when you turn the key if it lights up repeatedly
I'll bow out. Tom has you dialed in pretty well.
I was just curious if you confirmed the starter was clicking
Guessing you have no helper to try starting it while you see where click originates from
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greasy one
User
May 27, 2022, 7:38 PM
Post #41 of 52
(454 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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I jumped the small hot wire and the heavy hot wire, both on the solenoid, you said to and great advice. It turned over every try. Good advice about the test light too. Will do.
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greasy one
User
May 28, 2022, 9:16 AM
Post #42 of 52
(437 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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Made me a neat lil test light out of a rocker switch and it works. When I hit the key it clicks and a tiny bit of light or none. When it decides to engage, the light flashes much brighter. I have my manual and it doesnt seem to list any fuses/relays for the starter.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 28, 2022, 10:58 AM
Post #43 of 52
(429 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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The power for that wire leaves the ignition switch on Wht/Blk and then goes through the neutral switch. It leaves there on a Wht/Blu or Wht/Grn and goes to the starter so those are the places you have to test.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 28, 2022, 12:40 PM
Post #44 of 52
(417 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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! IDK what that cost U but a real test light, Incandescent for this would be as good or better plus is only ~ $5 at Harbor Freight. Maybe more now? YOU ARE TESTING THE TRIGGER WIRE AT STARTER? If somewhere else my understanding isn't correct of what you are doing.
Anyhow - if that's incandescent vs LED it's very telling + changes this search. HT is spot on to test other things that are along the way to that at starter as he said the neutral switch and before that from ignition switch. He listed the colors - GREAT.
If so it's not enough power to pull a solenoid in and stay and stay as a strong connection to deliver power (AMPS again) to starter it would click or flutter if close but no cigar.
That mean it's wire or switches not reaching starter because they don't have contiguous power when requested.
I thought you went directly to trigger wire with a jumper already would by-pass all of this and prove starter and its actions are correct is all we've been looking for LONG thread.
This mess now of a thread is for lack of proper tools IMO actually sure about now.
Yikes????????? If this is playing intermittent like you've said even a total professional at this could be fooled and quit wasting time on YOUR $ but you leave with the same problem.
That's why this has eluded all discovery the most from the get go.
You now have to test as HT = Hammer Time(let's abbreviate some) too late this is already loooong.
Carry on with testing you have the wire colors this time need to see where it drops out proper voltage + fix that,
Tom
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greasy one
User
May 28, 2022, 2:54 PM
Post #45 of 52
(404 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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Yes finally know whats really happening, at least the right trail. Bad connection to solenoid. I have tried starting in neutral with no luck. I will try and track those wires so thanks.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 28, 2022, 3:10 PM
Post #46 of 52
(398 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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You have to test the voltage at various points to find out where you are losing it.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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greasy one
User
May 28, 2022, 3:15 PM
Post #47 of 52
(396 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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I did jump from small hot on solenoid to large, and that fired, no problem, with key on, so starter works. but from start on key to wherever is a problem. My little rocker switch light works and I even found 1 alligator clip, need 1 more, but, for now my, little test leads with 2 clips and leads from a voltmeter will check anything, now that I am starting to know what Im doing.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 28, 2022, 4:02 PM
Post #48 of 52
(392 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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You are turning a 10 minute check into a big ordeal. Use a voltmeter if you have one and start at the starter wire at the ignition switch. If you have full voltage coming out there, then go test coming out of the neutral switch and see what you have there. You will need a helper to operate the key while you read the voltage. This shouldn't be a big deal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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greasy one
User
May 28, 2022, 5:19 PM
Post #49 of 52
(380 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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hopefully it won't be a big deal, later. I did learn a lot already.
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greasy one
User
May 29, 2022, 6:49 PM
Post #50 of 52
(347 views)
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Re: Stuck at home, luckily
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Had a hard time under dash getting readings but Im thinking the start setting on the ignition is a problem. When I turn a little harder the thing fires a little better.
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