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spartadrive_in
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Jun 11, 2008, 9:35 AM
Post #1 of 22
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Suspected Oil Leak
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2001 Honda Accord EX Sedan 4-cyl. Manual Trans
Hello. First time on here and I've been told you guys are the ones to talk to.
I suspect an oil leak in my car that is in very good condition.
I've been monitoring my oil levels for a few weeks now and I have been noticing it has been losing about a quart a week. (I drive about 250 miles a week.)
I havn't seen any puddles on the floor where I usually park (overnight, work). And I have not seen any visible leaks on the top side of the motor (I have yet to take a thorough look underneath).
So what could be possible problems and areas or suspicion. Where should I be looking really?
Thank you in advance.
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dave284
Enthusiast
Jun 11, 2008, 10:16 AM
Post #2 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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If you can't see any from the bottom, check the sparkplugs for signs of burning oil there,and also the tailpipe.
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DanD
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Jun 11, 2008, 12:36 PM
Post #4 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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I agree with Dave; if the car is going through that much oil and it was from an external leak; the under side of the car would look like a butter ball turkey; self-basting.
Pull the spark plugs, like Dave said and have a look see. If you see carbon like in the pictures below, you’ve found where the oils going.
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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DanD
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Jun 11, 2008, 2:26 PM
Post #6 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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No spark plugs or a valve cover gasket won’t do anything for that; it may mean reconditioning a portion, if not the entire engine.
Worn oil control piston rings, cylinder walls worn tapered, valve guides or seals worn to the point that oil can get past these items and enter the combustion chamber.
If this is a high mileage car the problem could be a combination of all these things.
With that being said there are still some external things that might be causing this. If the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) valve is not functioning or the vacuum source to the valve is restricted; crankcase pressures cannot be relieved and this could force oil into the combustion chamber.
Remove the PCV valve from the valve cover, leaving the vacuum hose attached. Start the engine and place your finger over the opening of the valve. You should feel a strong vacuum and hear the engine slow by 50 to 150 rpm. If so the valve is working.
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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spartadrive_in
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Jun 11, 2008, 3:21 PM
Post #7 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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The mileage is at 108K.
I will check the PCV valve tonight. I pray it is not that other stuff you said.
I will check back with my findings as soon as I do these tasks.
Thank you.
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spartadrive_in
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Jun 16, 2008, 8:54 AM
Post #9 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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Ok there was NO OIL in the spark plugs.
Over the weekend I went to my personal family mechanic and after throwing it on the lift and poking around and asking me questions, there is no blue smoke or anything coming out of the tail pipe and he couldn't find a single drop anywhere, he concluded that the engine was taking up too much oil. More precisely the 'piston rings' were using it up. He told me that parts and labor would be a total of ~$1,400 ($600 being on parts alone) to replace the rings and that the head had to go to the machine shop for re-sanding. What do you guys think of this? Sounds plausible?
ALSO, if I'm correct then would this be covered under a POWER TRAIN WARRANTY?
Thanks a million.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 16, 2008, 2:35 PM
Post #10 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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If it's "burning" a quart every 250 miles it would show at the spark plugs. Needing a "ring" job is old fashioned - not a likely fix without lots more possiblly needed if it really does need that job.
I'm not buying that diag and remedy so fast. It's going somewhere but just eluding detection. Perhaps a oil pressure switch can drip and not hit anything.
Compression test would show condition of rings. More diagnostics needed before I'd spring 1400 bucks for what I think won't help.
Oil in coolant? Keep looking - second opinions..........
T
Ask - but I bet a 2001 has no warranty left for this
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spartadrive_in
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Jun 16, 2008, 10:38 PM
Post #11 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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I am getting a second opinion from a mechanic as we speak (I left it over night). I told him about the diagnosis and he told me he was going to run a compression test and get back to me.
I'll get back to you guys.
Thanks!
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DanD
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/ Moderator
Jun 17, 2008, 5:22 AM
Post #12 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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Sorry to contradict you Tom about the compression test; because you can have relatively good compression and still have a worn/seized oil control
ring(s), which will allow oil too pass, causing oil burning.
Spartadrive; most pistons have a set of three rings.
Here’s a scan, out of one of my old text books that shows the set-up and gives a brief description.
Notice how the upper ring has a wedge cut out of its inner upper edge. That is to allow compression too get in behind the ring and help push the ring even tighter to the cylinder wall. So if this ring is in “good” condition and the cylinder wall doesn’t have excessive taper; the engine will still show good compression.
The lower oil control ring is made up of three pieces and is much lighter in construction; it solely relies on its own spring tension, to keep it tight too the cylinder wall. If this ring is worn or sticking in its piston groove; oil will get past it and the intermediate ring isn’t designed to handle that much oil.
I know you said you do not see blue oil smoke but the engine maybe burning the oil on a continuous small amount, that you will not see it?
You would see oil if the problem were valve guides or valve seals; valve seals would give you puffs of oil with throttle change. As the engine vacuum would change from low (accelerating) to high decelerating; oil would get sucked past the guides, causing a puff of oil smoke.
If you can’t see any external oil leakage; the oil has to be going some place and the only other place is out the tail pipe.
A gas analyzer, stuck in the tail pipe; monitoring hydrocarbons (HC) would tell you if there were excessive oil in the exhaust.
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 17, 2008, 6:29 AM
Post #13 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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Dan - you can slap me around any time you want  . My real concern with this was lack of evidence and I would have put a compression test on my list for diagnosing this. It's just been my experience that Hondas and some others do very well with oil consumption even with higher mileage. IMO by the time there's the same problem with rings with all cylinders - oil or compression rings that it's the result of something else (poor maintenance, overheats, sludge) that means more troubles ahead.
If this came to me with no evidence, good even compression test results I'd miss suspecting the possiblity you brought up.
Even Kitty would have missed that and she's the one with the "paws" on experience at my shop!
Tom
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spartadrive_in
User
Jun 17, 2008, 8:54 AM
Post #14 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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Thanks for all that information Dan. I'll check back when the mechanic calls me back.
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spartadrive_in
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Jun 17, 2008, 5:18 PM
Post #15 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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OK guys,
The mechanic said he did a compression test and it passed fine. He said that the engine was perfect and there was no problem there.
His diagnosis was that the clutch was using/burning? the oil. He said replacement of the clutch would fix the problem. About $180 for the clutch kit (parts only) + labor (about $280).
He said during his test drive that the RPMs were too high. So all these things told him the clutch needs to be replaced.
Your thoughts please?
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DanD
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Jun 18, 2008, 4:09 AM
Post #16 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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All I’ll say to that is get a written guarantee from this person and have it notarized by your lawyer; that the engine oil consumption is cured with this clutch repair!
I’m not there to test drive or check this vehicle but if a slipping clutch is causing the engine oil to disappear; you must be literally revving the living crap out of the engine.
Clutches are not lubricated by engine oil, in anyway, shape or form.
Now if the rear engine main seal is leaking, allowing oil to get on the clutch; causing it to slip that’s another story. You have to remove the clutch to get too the main seal, but you said there are no leaks?
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 18, 2008, 6:44 AM
Post #17 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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I should probably go hide from this thread but it's interesting. I'm not buying into the clutch as the source problem. If slipping enough to allow contantly higher RPMs and somehow burning off oil dripping on it something would have self destructed by now. Hey - one gallon of oil lost in 1,000 miles went somewhere. I'm stuck with "where's the evidence?"
Just curious about the pattern of this....... you say it uses a qt every 250 miles. I'm probably out in left feild but that's about an interval for refueling so if that's so and you add oil at a gas station and it manages to actually leak soon after but stay just the qt low till you check again then perhaps it is leaking to ground pehaps out of something (sensor) on the oil pan that can leak and not make a mess anywhere and is done dripping when you park it so remains unseen.
For something odd like that I'd suggest checking the oil again the same day you knew it was at the full mark and see if it's still there??
Also: Is this car routinely parked at an extreme angle or something odd about it's use not noted yet?
T
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spartadrive_in
User
Jun 18, 2008, 9:29 AM
Post #18 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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DAN:
I aksed him if oil passed throught the clutch (because my common sense says no) and he said it dows not. I wasn't quite sure what he meant that the clutch was using it up. Like I said before his analysis of the higher RPMs led him to believe this further.
What should the idle RPMs be in a 2001 Honda Accord be anyway?
I don't have a lawyer. How do I get a notary? At the post office?
TOM:
I do check the oil on the same day. Usually I am putting oil in my drivewway at times so that oil would stay on the floor and then I would see it. Even when I'm on the move I will put oil, go to my destination, and then check it again when I get there. Usually the levels are good. It always seems to "sneek" up on me. I will check it randomly and that's when I see it low.
I am going to start a rigorous time schedule at when to check it so that I can chart it's progress.
About extreme angles. My driveway is on a slight slope but I usually park on the street which is flat. At work it is also parked flat.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 18, 2008, 11:09 AM
Post #19 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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Just Tom for the moment - Dan will be back as he can.
Engine oil could get onto clutch thru the rear main as Dan suggested but isn't designed for engine oil to be involved with the clutch or trans at all. There's heat when you are allowing partial grab (the transition from disengaged to engaged) that might get hot enough to burn some oil off. A drop or two not quarts! The few that have leaked on clutch disc all had driveability issues with the clutch as the first complaint.
RPMs at idle? 650-750ish and steady? In the area....
Notary Public: Banks, RealEstate offices, law offices - ask around.
Do keep a record and observations. Have you ever caught this low enough to cause low or no oil pressure?? That worries me,
T
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DanD
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Jun 18, 2008, 11:12 AM
Post #20 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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I’m not sure what he means either; about the clutch using up the oil because that’s a new one to me?
As far as the lawyer thing goes; well that was me being sarcastic.
There’s no way a clutch can be the direct cause of an engine using oil.
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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spartadrive_in
User
Jun 18, 2008, 11:27 AM
Post #21 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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The Oil indicator has never come on and I've seen it go below the low-level dot(mark). There is always enough to at least see it towards the bottom of the dip stick.
I havn't found any problems in the way the transmission drives although the last few days when I'm at a stop light the RPMs will start to hesitate (fall low then jump back to where it usually stays) about 2 or 3 times. This is usually wafter I've exited the freeway and am now at the first few stoplights.
The RPMs are idle just below 1K if not a tad lower. But besides what I just described above ,when it is not doing that the meter holds steady.
Thanks again.
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spartadrive_in
User
Jul 2, 2008, 2:13 PM
Post #22 of 22
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Re: Suspected Oil Leak
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Just and UPDATE.
I finally had my clutch replaced and got it back yesterday. The dealer went in on half the payment since the powertrain warranty did not cover it.
Know that I am using a new clutch (I never had one before) I now know that my other cars could have used clutches. :)
It rides way smoother, sounds better, and doesn't hesitate from 1st of slip anymore.
NOW. ... the original problem here was the oil leak. Now he told me that the clutch was causing it. (???)
He assured me that it is fixed and I have a warranty. OF course I won't know for sure until a few days of driving it.
I have been keeping a daily log of my fluid levels over the past 2 weeks and am familiar with how much was wasting. I will continue my daily log and continue to monitor this. HOPEFULLY it's good because this has been a hassle.
thanks and any comments of help is appreciated.
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