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2004 Explorer Cranks but won't start
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battcave
Novice
Nov 25, 2015, 5:28 PM
Post #1 of 15
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2004 Explorer Cranks but won't start
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Okay folks... I'm at a loss. Even my simple mind understands that if you have fuel, air, compression and spark you should have ignition. My 2004 Explorer 4.0 decided overnight that it didn't want to start. No warning signs. I have tested the CKP sensor (Good), Fuel pump (good), fuel pressure at fuel rail (seems good. no shrader valve to connect a gauge so popped rail end cap. pressurized and had strong flow), spark at plugs (good with brand new coil pack), fuel delivery(< that was a spam hyperlink) from injectors (seems good. with plug removed I can see the fuel mist), compression checked all cylinders, added seafoam in case of moisture in fuel, sprayed starting fluid into air intake and verified that anti theft system operates as expected. Scanned with Code Scout and no trouble codes found. After all of this, the engine still just turns over and never even attempts to fire. It makes absolutely no sense to me and I need some expert advice.
(removed hyperlink from another forum)
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Nov 25, 2015, 5:37 PM)
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 25, 2015, 5:30 PM
Post #2 of 15
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Re: 2004 Explorer Cranks but won't start
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What were the values of your testing? You say good, but what does that mean? Good to you could be bad.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Nov 25, 2015, 5:31 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 25, 2015, 5:39 PM
Post #3 of 15
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Re: 2004 Explorer Cranks but won't start
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Took out spamming link to another forum. OP please don't just copy and paste stuff from other sites their spam comes with it,
T
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Nov 25, 2015, 5:39 PM)
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battcave
Novice
Nov 25, 2015, 6:36 PM
Post #4 of 15
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Re: 2004 Explorer Cranks but won't start
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Sorry about that Tom. I did post on a couple other forums looking for as much help as possible. It was far easier to copy/paste than to recreate for each. My fault and my apologies.
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battcave
Novice
Nov 25, 2015, 6:52 PM
Post #5 of 15
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Re: 2004 Explorer Cranks but won't start
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From original post (CKP sensor (Good), Fuel pump (good), fuel pressure at fuel rail (seems good. no shrader valve to connect a gauge so popped rail end cap. pressurized and had strong flow), spark at plugs (good with brand new coil pack), fuel delivery(< that was a spam hyperlink) from injectors (seems good. with plug removed I can see the fuel mist), compression checked all cylinders, added seafoam in case of moisture in fuel, sprayed starting fluid into air intake and verified that anti theft system operates as expected.)
CKP sensor resistance = 740 ohms, putting out 4.87 volts, RPM needle deflects above 0 when sensor is connected. No needle movement when disconnected
Fuel pump= Audible verification when key is turned on. Shuts off when pressurized. Also proven by fuel movement with fuel rail end cap removed.
Fuel pressure= With no shrader valve unable to get reading. Simply noted strong flow in rail.
Spark= Was weak and mostly yellow prior to replacement of coil pack. After replacement of pack, spark was sharp and mostly blue.
Injectors= Simply noted that fuel was being delivered to the cylinders due to mist from spark plug hole with plug removed.
Compression= All cylinders tested (dry and cold) 163-169 psig=
Anti-theft= Dash light flashes until key is inserted and turned to on. Light then goes solid for approximately 3 seconds and extinguishes.
(This post was edited by battcave on Nov 25, 2015, 6:54 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 25, 2015, 11:45 PM
Post #7 of 15
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Re: 2004 Explorer Cranks but won't start
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May have been at work at same time and site burped around then. Looked up the link. On this thread it's over now may have been on another.
Out of this was just taking out what didn't belong that users don't know comes with copying threads and may not see it?
T
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kev2
Veteran
Nov 26, 2015, 6:28 AM
Post #8 of 15
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Re: 2004 Explorer Cranks but won't start
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you can't ck fuel pressure?-
you are SURE there are no codes?
then basics-
as someone cranks engine spray some carb or brake clean into TB (throttle body) does it hit-try to start?
YOU CHECKED SPARK AT MULTIPLY cylinders?
did not confuse firing order with new coil- no#1 is where?
use vacuum gauge...let us know..
did you do any recent work on vehicle -what WHY?
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 26, 2015, 6:55 AM
Post #9 of 15
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Re: 2004 Explorer Cranks but won't start
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This is a variable fuel pressure system that uses a Fuel pump drive module. You need to use a scan tool to see the fuel pressure as it has a fuel pressure sensor on the rail instead of a service port.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 26, 2015, 7:33 AM
Post #10 of 15
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Re: 2004 Explorer Cranks but won't start
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The fact you have spark tells you the engine controller is getting a signal from the crankshaft position sensor. You tried priming with starter fluid and had no results, so it probably isn't a fuel delivery issue. What did you use to test the spark with? Spark has to be able to jump at least a 3/4 gap in open air.
If the spark events are not timed in relation to the cylinders' events, it won't run. This screams lab scope time to look at a relative compression test capture and sync on a coil secondary to see when the spark is occurring.
How was this engine running before it wouldn't start? Were there any repairs done prior to this?
Here is an example of a relative compression test along with a secondary sync. The blue trace is the compression humps of each cylinder in their respective firing order. The red trace shooting up is a spark event happening inside its respective cylinder. The spark event should occur close to its cylinder's compression hump peak. If the spark even is occurred way past or way before TDC, the engine won't run.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Nov 26, 2015, 7:46 AM)
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battcave
Novice
Nov 26, 2015, 11:54 AM
Post #11 of 15
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Re: 2004 Explorer Cranks but won't start
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The fact you have spark tells you the engine controller is getting a signal from the crankshaft position sensor. You tried priming with starter fluid and had no results, so it probably isn't a fuel delivery issue. What did you use to test the spark with? Spark has to be able to jump at least a 3/4 gap in open air.
If the spark events are not timed in relation to the cylinders' events, it won't run. This screams lab scope time to look at a relative compression test capture and sync on a coil secondary to see when the spark is occurring.
How was this engine running before it wouldn't start? Were there any repairs done prior to this?
Unfortunately, these are the same conclusions that I've come to. However, I still struggle with a few things as I'm the type of person that over analyzes things and needs to understand them.
I still can't understand how, if there is fuel and spark, the engine doesn't even TRY to hit. Seems to me that even if it has "jumped time", I would think that there would be some kind of "ignition" in the cylinder. This thing acts like the fuel and ignition systems are both disabled. It literally just spins.
In answer to your remaining questions, I don't have any tool or equipment to test spark so it was simply a visual thing. There was a noticeable improvement in spark quality after I replaced the coil pack (and yes the plug wires have been verified to be connected according to proper firing order). My wife had stated that the rig had been running a little rough this summer. I replaced plugs, wires, fuel filter, etc. and it was fine. After this starting issue, she told me that it has been stumbling a little again recently.
I sure appreciate all of the input. Happy Thanksgiving.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 26, 2015, 5:49 PM
Post #12 of 15
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You stated you have fuel, compression, and spark. The next thing to check would be the timing of when the spark occurs.
For an engine to run, yes, it needs a hot spark, proper fuel to air ratio, and compression. Those are the basics to check first. You also need proper valve and ignition timing. The fuel/air charge will not ignite if the spark timing is to far advanced or retarded from TDC on the cylinder's compression stroke.
The only way to see if spark timing is happening at the right time is with an automotive digital storage O scope on your vehicle. If you determine if the ignition timing is off, then you have to figure out why.
Inspect the harmonic balancer and make sure the tone ring or the balancer itself hasn't slipped.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Nov 26, 2015, 5:51 PM)
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battcave
Novice
Nov 29, 2015, 9:10 AM
Post #13 of 15
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Re: 2004 Explorer Cranks but won't start
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I have thrown in the towel fellas!!! She left on a roller to the local ford dealership yesterday. Stay tuned....
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 29, 2015, 10:02 AM
Post #14 of 15
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There were probably a lot of Independent local shops that were capable of doing that a lot cheaper.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
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Nov 29, 2015, 3:23 PM
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Re: 2004 Explorer Cranks but won't start
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Hey, you did what you could with what you had, so don't be discouraged you couldn't figure it out. Sometimes those problems can be a real pecker. I'm interested to see how this one turns out. Hopefully it isn't too expensive..
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Nov 29, 2015, 3:26 PM)
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