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93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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jjrbus
User
Jun 15, 2015, 11:33 AM
Post #1 of 26
(3663 views)
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93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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I shot myself in the foot buying a 93 Toyota cab and chassis pickup based RV and did not notice that it was R12. I knew it was not working, but not R12, too late now.
From the passenger cab forward this is just a Toyota pickup, nothing RV special about it.
93 Toyota pickup, V6 3VZE motor automatic transmission. After some web searching I have bought
FOUR SEASONS55868 Hose
FOUR SEASONS56315 Hose
FOUR SEASONS59978 service valve
FOUR SEASONS59976 Service valve
Denso compressor Kit 10PA15C
Reciever dryer GPD 1411557
expansion valve GPD 3411239
seal and gasket kit GPD 1321284
condenser CND39320
gasket kit
In simple terms due to poor or unknown condition I am replacing everything except the hard metal lines and evaporator, . I also know I need to flush what is left and I have read and watched every video I can on it.
My first question, the compressor comes preloaded with 5oz PAG46. I have been told that I should change it to double end capped PAG46. Yes or no?
2nd, would I need to flush the PAG46 that is in the compressor or would draining be sufficent?
I also read that the amount of oil to use is art and science. But I am starting with a completely empty flushed system. The charts for a 1994 Toyota with 134A and all the same part number's as I have call for 7oz of PAG 46. The chart for my 93 with R12 calls for 7oz of mineral oil. It appears on the surface that 7oz of oil is the correct amount? Or should I give up now and take it to an AC shop?
My theory being if I could get the basics right and everything installed and leak tested, I could take it to a shop for charging.
Any input, thoughts, ideas, suggestions or wise cracks greatly appreciated. Jim
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 15, 2015, 2:54 PM
Post #2 of 26
(3655 views)
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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Apparently ALL'93 Toyo trucks were R-12 now parts (no doubt) will all be 134a friendly but may reduce the OE specified charge amount and nice if the said by how much.
Why all those parts already? Do you know why it isn't working at all yet? Might just be low or a small simple leak and just keep it R-12 which would outlast all the junk new parts excepts perhaps barrier hoses.
If you go for it expect about 20% loss of new OE possible cooling power right away. No problem with a truck cab IMO.
If you really can guess the R-12 system capacity when ready for charge* start at perhaps 65% of a known and not more than 80% of a known for R-12.
PAG doesn't do the OE mineral oil so all anywhere must be flushed out, blown out and dump what comes with a compressor for new anyway IMO. PAG-46 was called for the next model year so seems fine. How much? Look at your new parts, are they HE or still tube and fin on condenser at least would change charge amount.
Chart means little now but looking at either 23oz R-12 and 7.75oz mineral or another 27oz R-12 and 7+ a tad mineral. OK IMO to be over a little on oil like an ounce.
Just wrote a thing on how to charge when info unknown is like a whole book and day of work to do sometimes at just the right conditions unless you have a sealed atmospheric room to do it in it's tricky but doable.
Can you find out what the system needs first and not start a total project out of what could be simple.
I can't know if the stuff/parts in it now are good or not but age alone doesn't always mean they are bad. Parts like condenser made for 134a will not work better with R-12 just FYI if you do just keep it R-12 and I strongly think you should if no other reason it doesn't have the insane propensity to leak (larger molecule) than 134a. So let someone else do the final charge if you can't get any whoop-de-do......... an extra $100 if that. Time to get charge right if you don't do it could run way up in time by the hour,
T
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Jun 16, 2015, 10:35 AM)
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jjrbus
User
Jun 15, 2015, 5:28 PM
Post #3 of 26
(3646 views)
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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Thanks for the quick response. The system has been empty for an unknown amount of time? The vehicle had sat for 14 years. The compressor was covered with oil and dirt obviously leaking for a long time. The hoses looked pretty shabby, the condenser looked pretty bad and I was taking the radiator out as it leaked, so I had access to the condenser. I am replacing timing belt so I also now have easy access to the compressor.
At big bucks per lb I did not want to put R12 in and have a 22 year old hose or condenser blow. It made more sense to me to replace everything while it was apart and easy to work on. The trade off is less efficient cooling.
The condenser is serpentine, same part# for 93 with R12 or 94 with 134A.
Read your article on charging very well done, tempts me to try it myself. Jim
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 16, 2015, 6:00 AM
Post #4 of 26
(3629 views)
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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Was away from devices - sorry.
Scared now. It sat for you said 14 years! That alone worries me in general. Any critter damage to really make this an endless project?
System empty for unknown time. OK or better I guess if R-12 not 134a w PAG would croak. Big difference in oil and acidity if exposed PAG oils vs plain mineral keeps about forever. Use that to lube any and all "O" rings and for lube NOT PAG. Another product is Nylog - I like pure (100%) clear silicone grease by the smear as little as possible - you choose as that I can only find by Dynatex at brake specialty places. $15+ a tube too!
Close as you can get if you can find it?
Pic may expire above?
OK - The "lore" of some things all full of exceptions and arguable. A good new system now (134a) is designed to last (leak wise) about 7 years. Some do ages more some don't. R-12 once (way back) allowed loss of "X" per year up to a pound and allowed you to add the extra to get an extra year before shotgun blasting in more looking at a sight glass - no joke - about anyone could watch it be full basic understanding - was the equivalent of a dipstick for A/C, some 134a did it also. If you have a sight glass now disregard it for a conversion/retrofit.
Oil evidence? IDK - at this point and sitting is it A/C oil or what? May never know but 14 years was enough for sure for anything at all. It's near impossible to store something automotive that long without wild problems like about every seal on any shaft anywhere will leak when put back in service. Not right away but within weeks. Knowing what it was exposed to could help you decide how much to do on what. If the thing can't run there's no point in it having A/C at all - right?
No joke, new unsold cars not even sent off to destinations are recycled by the mega thousands every year for lack of use, flat tires, dead batteries and engines seized or gun rusted inside as all oils, gearcases, trans and all dripped dry to the bottom - unfixable or impractical plus who would buy a two year old new vehicle all messed with when a real new one is available?
Link to what happens right below. Might be closed by now and applies to outdoor parked vehicles. Don't click on links within it - they warn my device...............
http://www.vincelewis.net/unsoldcars.html
Back to this exact truck and A/C. I still totally suggest you keep it R-12. It's uses so little it can't be a cost factor now. It's being captured by the ton all over from refrigeration products and some vehicles still and not so clear it's made new still in countries that didn't buy into the ban of it! It was used in tons of products and things you can still find new but old. Air horns for example just have to use a side tap - no problem. I personally don't trust nor own a detector that can verify the product is real or not and cheating went on plus short changing how much you actually got in a container.
Think about it and if you can get it and help for a final charge whatever you use. Rock and hard place, it's effectively obsolete yet out there in quantity. I guess if in doubt or no help make the retrofit so you know what you are dealing with at least.
Notes in general: Condenser and fan power is key. You can (despite claims) use the OE condensers w 134a. Just fan it with a HD fan clutch and cut down the loss of BTU dramatically. Orig condenser is much tougher but any can catch a rock or break. Other strong help is paint roof a light reflective color, thick carpet in insulate floor and all rubber as tight as you can do. Tint windows as allowed for your area helps too.
So. What do you want to do? Is this running well enough now to mess with A/C or was that just first on your list?
Tom
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jjrbus
User
Jun 16, 2015, 3:46 PM
Post #5 of 26
(3619 views)
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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Thank you very much for the response, greatly appreciated.
This vehicle for 22 years old and sitting is in remarkably good condition. I had to replace many things, but I got it cheap and my labor is free. It runs great and now that I have replaced tires, shocks, bushings handles well. The truck part is solid, no rust and the home part has no water damage, BIG plus. It will still be a money pit, but waaaay less than a new one or nice used one.
The oil on the compressor is defiantly from the compressor, it is all over the compressor and none on the motor.
I like silicon grease for o rings and have used it for years. Right now I have Oatlys plumbers grease, but do not know if it is 100% pure? I will have to look that one up.
You are right on the R12, it is still made and sold in many places and I am sure being shipped into this country on the black market. If I had an r12 vehicle that would only be used locally, i would keep it R12. But I will be traveling and do not want to be at the mercy of AC shops where I have no options.
So yes, I want to go ahead with the conversion to 134A. And hopefully do it mostly right. Thanks Jim
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 16, 2015, 4:49 PM
Post #6 of 26
(3615 views)
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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OK - You are going for it with this and agree, despite snags if overall condition is great for assorted crap it will beat cost of new.
Grease: doubt my fav is really pure just know it works. Doesn't wash off almost at all. Read products you want totally water proof lube and use so little it doesn't contaminate anything. Plumber's grease? Not a plumber but silicone would make solder never work come hell or high water. That and near impossible to paint something if you get it on something.
I still think either refrigerant is going to be best for final charge to get some pro help. I can't even guess close how many ounces of refrigerant will be the perfect amount. When known - know it and don't lose that info for anything needed later.
Don't say it's old Jim! Dang thing is YEARS newer than what I count on daily - no joke. I'm in MA, think rust belt city so bad if you drive in it that vehicle will crumble to the ground before you could wear it out. You can win - just don't use the prime vehicle at all and have a shat box for Winter during salting which can wash away in a good rain just been some years never warm enough for a few months. BTW - This vintage Toyota trucks especially rusted so bad you could watch it advance right up to the door handles, frames gone fast too.
Back to work on your truck. If you are going to replace things just anyway do use some PB on threaded stuff now. Alloys even in good looking shape are a real pest to impossible. Easy on evap not to bust it with any connections near it.
Do plug off open items while doing all this so no junk gets inside anything. I doubt you'll finish all items too quickly and think you can leave it drivable when snags come up and delay work,
T
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Discretesignals
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 16, 2015, 6:09 PM
Post #7 of 26
(3608 views)
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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I got a 92 toyota pickup 3.0L and it is converted. It works fine. Make sure the fan clutch is good. That will save the compressor. Mineral 525 works good on the O rings too. Don't use PAG cause it if gets on threaded connections, it will absorb moisture and corrode making it a bear to get them back apart. Not sure about using grease. Hopefully it doesn't cause the o rings to swell and leak.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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jjrbus
User
Jun 16, 2015, 7:21 PM
Post #8 of 26
(3600 views)
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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Nice to know at least one works! Thanks.
I am from Buffalo NY, actually West Seneca, but few know where West Seneca is. 2 cars, a nice car for summer and a beater for winter was the norm.
Plumbers grease is only used on o rings and valves, not near solder. It is rated for use in potable water so must be fairly pure?? I have been lead to believe that the grease is only used to keep O rings from distorting during installation? I have used food grade silicone for o rings and they do not look alike?
Plug lines, got it!
I have everything out except the fluid line from the evaporator and the evaporator. it is all laying in a pile in the garage.I have been told it is best for a DIYer to remove the liquid line's to flush? That brings me to another of 1000's of questions. I bought a compressor kit which included an expansion valve. That is a big job to replace, is it 100% necessary to replace it?
I will be finishing up my timing belt this week and after that it looks like first on my list of priority's will be flushing the evaporator and lines. then reinstalling parts. Also have to make note to check fan.
Every day I start to work on something I tell myself a lie. I don't have to write that down or take a picture, I will remember. The only thing I remember is I should have wrote it down or took a picture! Thanks Jim
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 17, 2015, 1:56 AM
Post #9 of 26
(3595 views)
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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Quote Jim">>That brings me to another of 1000's of questions.<<"
Ask them. Too much to lose for being wrong. Easy with plumbing products - unsure of what tolerances. "O" ring and lube idea is to tolerate all the extremes and not wash away.
Smile, West Seneca, NY. Just hop on I-90, head East about 450 miles and I there - said, rust city, more road salts used because of more traffic intolerant of plain wet roads or dry all Winta and no excuse not have roads perfect for driving in any Blizzard during it - ding dongs.
General defense is oils and lubes anywhere. Especially threaded stuff, flare nut anything, fuel and brake lines. Use it on all threaded things so they come apart later. If automotive silicone grease is trouble just use a NAPA. Sold under name brand "Sil-Glide" or their own name. Spray stuff too. Brand WD-40 in the act with non regular WD-40 for spray greases now and good stuff.
Anything that's heat, cold, water, salt while being rubber friendly helps. Hood latch on this this will bust if you don't lube it and ruin your whole day - lube it!
Know again that PAG oils, Brake fluid are "hygroscopic" meaning they absorb moisture even out of the air and worse change properties.
X valves, parts thru plastic air box things there is special A/C goo or can use "removable caulking" mold to shape, seal air leaks and semi sticky so stays. Only found is by MorTite comes in a roll like a rope spaghetti. Great product - hardware stores more likely than home centers to have it!
A/C over Winter - it comes on with use of defroster use for a couple seconds - make sure it does as it lubes it. Shaft seals and shaft when well below zero F will leak when about over 5 years with no evidence on many as they shrink as different rates and test fine later. I at all possible keep vehicles above 40F overnight totally helps everything.
Back: Fan clutches. Can get a real strong one for Summer (annoyingly hard pulling air thru) and change out for a Winter one that lame when not so needed. Glad DS brought that up. Air flow over condensers is #1 at making A/C perform its best AND keep engine properly cooled at the same time.
So get going. You know Summer is over by the 4th of July!
Tom
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jjrbus
User
Jun 17, 2015, 4:36 AM
Post #10 of 26
(3586 views)
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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I misspoke. I am originally from West Seneca NY. I now reside in South West Florida. Freezing or not using AC is not an issue here. Although I did hear that they had some snow flurries in 1976. If it were not for winter and tax's I would go back to NY in a heartbeat. So I am use to spraying, slathering, spreading grease, sealers, oils, anti seize on everything.
Florida looks nice on the surface, but summer here is brutal. Anything I do outside I have to wrap up by 11 oclock as it gets too hot to do anything. Plus it is a swamp and always high humidity. You can dress for cold weather but you cannot dress for hot weather. We treat summer here like winter up north, you do not go anyplace and not do anything. Even in the worst winters you get breaks, nice days. Not here always hot.
They sell a butyl rubber putty tape for RV's I will need some of that, it can also be used as removable caulking.
As I read it is said that all traces of mineral oil must be removed from system as it is incompatible with PAG. Then you suggest using mineral oil on O rings. Is that a different oil?
I am not a mechanic, just another idiot with a wrench and have no AC experience. The term strong fan clutch eludes me? Do they come in different strengths or ratings?? A quick Google search shows me nothing.
The expansion valve question, is it 100% necessary to replace expansion valve? Jim
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 17, 2015, 5:08 AM
Post #11 of 26
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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Understand the heat and need. Have family in Ft. Meyers.
The heat we are talking about is for the truck. It's not so much how hot and humid it gets and actual temps and engine + A/C heat. Just compressing gas can make temps to ~170F but engine too (exhaust heat too don't forget) blowing around under hood can get well over 300F and should set specs for more than that for products.
The brand of caulking I suggested is all I've tried. It wont change much with flames at it which should be ~700F not meant for that at all.
It's part of doing it right that's all. Total bad luck and a wrong product might melt and drip where you don't want and harden or burn? It's avoidable is the whole point, Tom
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jjrbus
User
Jun 17, 2015, 10:00 AM
Post #14 of 26
(3570 views)
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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I am on the other side of the river in N. Ft. Myers. Jim
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 17, 2015, 3:15 PM
Post #15 of 26
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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I'm in the West Palm area and I have to work in a hot shop every day. DS is in the Central FL area.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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jjrbus
User
Jun 17, 2015, 6:00 PM
Post #16 of 26
(3553 views)
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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Guess I can believe DS then when he says his AC conversion works : )
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 18, 2015, 4:40 AM
Post #17 of 26
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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Yes it works. It's just the range of "perfect" charge changes and potential cooling BTUs drops ~20% as said I thought? The caloric value of R-12 is close to (ONE) and 134a more like (.8) or so. So the parts are made to transfer heat* just that much more to get the same or enough. Trucks tend to be overkill depending on cab size.
Either will dry out the air substantially which is a lot of the battle for comfort,
T
* Technicality - Cooling isn't blowing cool it's removing heat or transferring it elsewhere. Doesn't matter just what's really happening....
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Jun 18, 2015, 4:44 AM)
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jjrbus
User
Jun 18, 2015, 7:17 AM
Post #18 of 26
(3531 views)
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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When somebody reports a Toyota 134A conversion works great from Quebec I think well maybe. But one that works in the middle Florida, it's gotta be OK.
I am still trying to figure out if I should replace the expansion valve or just flush it with the evaporator?
should I change to closed end PAG 46 and if so should I flush the compressor? Jim
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 18, 2015, 8:12 AM
Post #19 of 26
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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Hey Jim - Used to spend lots of long weekends in Montreal. Le Fleuve St. Laurent (St. Lawrence river) is a wet mess and gets as hot and humid as anywhere in FL - just not often but super suks because you don't expect it there. L'Hotel d'Gouveneurs is air conditioned so no problem. All real places are you might go. c'mon you lived in Buffalo area you know how long the daylight hours are about not. Lots longer than S. FL so more time to heat up.
Oil. Buy it the way you wish. I just buy bottles of it and keep them sealed tight. The panic about air/moisture getting to it is probably (can't prove this) not as fast as say "brake fluid" might be. It can turn acidic with moisture. Think. If compressor came with oil it wasn't sent/shipped sealed in vacuum box so that oil had some exposure. I suggested dump that and know how much is in the thing for sure and that it's really new.
X valve? You are doing everything else why not? If you absolutely knew that one was good I'd say no.
BTW - don't flush compressor. Just spin out any oil and or blow compressed air thru as well, add some new in inlet and spin it off truck thru as a pre-lube for the thing as you can burn one up fast if charging isn't fast enough to get oil circulating. Should say some of that w new (not a redo if going this far) compressor. Done with this except for my own. Most inland MA with age or miles on then a rust bucket vehicle if it needed a compressor job would just go without A/C or if a real keeper or special car go for it totally no expense too much,
T
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jjrbus
User
Jun 18, 2015, 2:51 PM
Post #20 of 26
(3520 views)
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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I did not want to replace the expansion valve!! I am tired of taking things apart and want to start putting it back together. It has been disabled in my drive for two weeks and I just want to go for a ride. But better to do it right and get it over with. I should have known, look at what I found. I don't care what kind of job I did or what gas I used it never would have cooled efficiently.
I do not see how to add a photo here?? The evaporator is plugged with filth, it must to be down to less than 40% passage of air!!
Also the foam seals are deteriorated, are they available or what is the best way to replace them? Thanks Jim
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jun 18, 2015, 3:34 PM
Post #21 of 26
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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I wouldn't change the valve at this point. You can always do it later if there is an issue with the old one. Leave the dash alone for now.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 18, 2015, 5:31 PM
Post #23 of 26
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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You can't clean a valve. If you already have it out, then definitely change it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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jjrbus
User
Jun 18, 2015, 6:05 PM
Post #24 of 26
(3506 views)
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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Thanks for the response, confused me on that one.. Any idea on replacing the foam seals on the cooling unit? Jim
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 18, 2015, 7:06 PM
Post #25 of 26
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Re: 93 Toyota pickup convert to 134A questions.
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You can buy sealing foam in various strips and sizes at Home Depot.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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