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comnavguy
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Jul 6, 2009, 1:49 AM
Post #1 of 10
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Add R-134 to R-12 ?
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When R 134 first came on the scene, we were told that all "O" rings had to be changed and dire warning that ANY R-12 residue or any Mineral Oil residue would ruin the system. There were some who said that the compressors had to be R-134 compressors. It was unreal almost to the point that some said not converting EVERYTHING might cause the start of the Apoclypse.
Then it turned out that the "O" rings didn't need to be replaced and that while it was a good idea to flush the system well to maintain cooling efficiency, it wasn't earth shaking critical.
NOW - I had an A/C specialist yesterday tell me that all I had to do with an R-12 system that is low on freon is to add R-134 with a little PAG oil and everything would work without any problem. He said that the 12 and mineral oil would continue to do it's job and the 134 and PAG theirs.
I have a difficult time believing that.
Any or all who have an opinion, please jump in.
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 6, 2009, 3:32 AM
Post #2 of 10
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Re: Add R-134 to R-12 ?
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You need to get as much as possible out. Leaving a little isn't a problem but you need to get some of it out.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Jul 6, 2009, 4:54 AM
Post #3 of 10
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Re: Add R-134 to R-12 ?
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I know I'm loosing my eyesight but did I see you were told you could add 134a to R-12 to boost it up like idea?? NO - you convert entirely if you wish. Old but tight rubber parts will still hold when converted in most all now. Why not just boost it with R-12 and pay the extra if leak is slow enough?
You never mix refrigerants and PAG is NOT compatible with mineral oil used for R-12. Ester is with some remaining mineral.
Will it work just to boost up with 134a? Might but it's illegal as all get out! Can't be recovered for re-use so becomes just a hazmat mix and anyone with a sensing device won't touch your car without some serious bucks,
T
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 6, 2009, 5:01 AM
Post #4 of 10
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Re: Add R-134 to R-12 ?
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I missed that "mixing refrigerants" stuff. Good catch Tom. I thought he was just referring to the oil. They are using Pag to retrofit now.
Definitely a "No No"
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 6, 2009, 7:14 AM
Post #5 of 10
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Re: Add R-134 to R-12 ?
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There isn't much left around here that's 93 or older except my own fleet. Most cars that old have rusted out and folks won't pay unless it's something special. There's one Vette that I just boosted now four years ago with R-12. I did change one 80s Lincoln TC of my own over but I hate PAG as it's hygroscopic then becomes acidic whereas Ester doesn't. They say PAG is the choice in the hotter climate. The oil brand named PolyMax is supposed to be one size fits all but haven't used it. Haven't done sh*t as even all family cars are all working except one but it's 168 miles away so what am I to do??
BTW - the converted TCs and several Grand Marquis and some Crown Vics all could blow as low as 38F for a short while then low 40s after converted! They don't have the same BTU power though as original R-12 meaning if car is full of passengers (almost never my own case) that added body heat can make rear passengers a bit warm on the hot days.
At any rate folks PLEASE DON'T MIX THE REFRIGERANTS! Those is biz are reclaiming it for reuse and if it all goes into a large container you just mess it all up on them! Machines that separate the gasses back out are wicked expensive!
T
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comnavguy
User
Jul 6, 2009, 9:48 AM
Post #6 of 10
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Re: Add R-134 to R-12 ?
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Well, I'm like the little boy who dropped his chewing gum in the hen house.
Since making the post, I've been reading. I've learned that Freeze 12 (which is supposed to be "100 percent compatable with R-12) contains as much as 80% R-134.
FR 12 is made by Autofrost, McCool Chill-It, Technical Chemical, and Refrigerant Gases.
I've never converted a 12 to 134 that I didn't change the O tube and the accumulator/dryer and sometiimes the condenser, but ALWAYS flushing the system completely.
It just surprises me that people are knowingly mixing the two compounds, and I was just wondering if anyone had done a study
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 6, 2009, 10:57 AM
Post #7 of 10
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Re: Add R-134 to R-12 ?
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This misleading advertising is to blame. There's only one true R-12 originally brand named Freon by Dupont.
Others shouldn't be allowed to use 12 in the name - IMO it's not the same stuff at all,
T
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jul 6, 2009, 11:03 AM
Post #8 of 10
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Re: Add R-134 to R-12 ?
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Freeze12 is definitely not the same as R12 and actually is not an accepted refrigerant by the EPA. It contaminates recovery machines and I have seen the ambient pressures rise over 150 when parked in the hot sun.
I wouldn't touch that stuff with a 10 foot pole. If you can't use real R12, then change over to R134A. They are the only 2 accepted refrigerants for automotive use.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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comnavguy
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Jul 7, 2009, 7:22 AM
Post #9 of 10
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Re: Add R-134 to R-12 ?
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I hear what you're saying, but for at least the last 3 - 4 years, Freeze 12 was sold and used as an acceptable sub for R-12. Some manufacturers add Butane up to 30%. That's what I want. A bomb in the A/C in my car.
Thanks for the reply
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comnavguy
User
Jul 7, 2009, 7:46 AM
Post #10 of 10
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Re: Add R-134 to R-12 ?
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Tom,
That's not just your opinion. That's a fact. Freeze 12 ain't even a close sub. It is an altogether different compound, and I'm just learning that.
I've had two licensed A/C guys tell me and I've seen them use Freeze 12 on cars sold on one of these "note" lots.
Thanks for your input.
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