Antifreeze

Ok: When all done flushing know that there's some water left in the block so find the exact system capacity listed in owner's manual for the car and put full strenth EG (ethylene glycol) - I prefer non colored long life stuff - brand not necessarily the most important and put in EXACTLY 1/2 that capacity of pure product, all first, then finish with distilled water for the best possible result. Hence the answer is a 50/50 mix which equals -34F ---- fine for almost all places.

Car may take several cycles and be problematic to to purge out last air trapped in engine. Keep trying and see post above in this section on purging air out of cooling systems.

Good luck,

T

This car may have a bleeder bolt at or real near thermostat to help with purging air,

T

http://autoforums.carjunky.com/...;;page=unread#unread

That's still worth a re-read as I think you still have air.

Does this model use a pressure cap on the radiator or just the recovery tank?

*Was it proper before or is this the reason for working on it to begin with? If this is the same old problem tell me/us what the ambient temps are and if fans are coming on. Are you certain thermostat is installed properly? Some might fit if put in backwards but I don't think this one will. Thermostats are usually marked "toward radiator" or some marking for direction of flow.

If just the recovery tank this is more likely the problem.

If the recovery tank access only, take it around the block and run heater full blast. Allow warm ups and cool downs but still avoid genuine overheating/boiling.

Real tricky air may be helped by hoisting car up such that upper hose, thermostat is as high as possible. Allow to run till upper hose is warm, shut down, refill tank and repeat.

Note whether system builds up pressure from cold and how fast from cold when there should be none noted - simply squeeze upper hose as a test - using all care as it could be very hot and use glove as needed.

When "squeezable" and little to no pressure is thought in system you may notice bubbles going out to recovery tank - liquid should return when released but you aren't seeing that.

* This could have needed more that a thermostat and the "elusive and dreaded" problem can be a head gasket fault. Those are tricky to know especially in vehicles know to be difficult to purge air out of.

*********************

Again - don't allow overheats while doing this. The fluctuating gauge for now suggests it's not really boiling and real boiling you can hear. When shut off the engine should make normal sounds - not like a coffee percolator if anyone remembers those. An overheat if not quite full now is just stalling progress and risking more troubles.

Getting the air out can be a real hair puller and this may be the only issue so far. Any other info or history can help,

T

Yea! Sounds like success. The infamous "getting the air out" was in fact the issue. I was worried about a head gasket issue but this engine didn't have a history leading to that just yet.

Sorry about the long read of a "locked" post on purging air out of cooling systems. It is a pill on some cars and there ISN'T a 1-2-3-4 step instruction checklist that fits every situation or vehicle - wish there was.

The basics are always the same. Air rises to the top. Trouble is it gets caught by a closed thermostat and with vehicles with lower hood profiles the radiators get designed low, sideways and squished in to fit the body of the car.

Even when stabil as now - do recheck the level now just at the recovery tank for a few days of use. It may still find some air to displace even though working fine for now so keep it at marked "full" level and hope you can forget it for a while.

Good luck. Stay warm!

T

Okay, now I let the car cool down, went to start, and the coolant low light came on, but I do still have heat and the reservoir is full. Then the light went off, is this normal? And I am not leaking any antifreeze anywhere, I checked everywhere and even put a full sheet of cardboard under the car to see if any leaks.

T

Wow! Thread got long in a hurry! If you are up to a water pump you are correct that they are cheap and fairly easy. Take belt off now and you can feel if it's the noise or not most of the time. Water pump can also be an unseen air leak! Rare but sometimes the seal will not hold the slightest vacuum but can hold pressure - don't even try to figure out why but they can and if so air enters there without evidence which is possibly prohibiting return coolant from recovery tank. RARE!

Pretty sure the hardest part of a water pump job is cleaning the gasket surface on the timing cover. Just 5 (?) 8mm bolts hold it on after belt and pulley which just pulls/falls off when belt is off.

You can save your coolant if you catch it in a clean container, run thru something like window screen to remove any larger particles if needed and don't scrape gasket over the pan - DO PUT THE PAN OUT OF HARMS WAY - ANIMALS CAN AND WILL TRY TO DRINK IT and YES - IT'S POISONOUS.

While belt if off check the other pulleys for noises as long as you hear something and intend on keeping at this do them then as needed,

T

Arggh! Let's make sure as best we can before coming to that dreaded conclusion.

Test for exhaust/combustion gasses entering cooling system making vapor (same effect as air) are:

Test strips available for gasses that will change color or fancier equipment for that is out there.

You can know this by feeling for pressure too early which with experience is easier of course so I'll try to explain that out.

Fill as best you can while cold.

Start engine with pressure cap off and feel for upper hose to warm up and gauge to read something like a normal temp. In essence the expansion of the coolant is about done so shut engine off a minute and put pressure cap back on. Now start up and feel the upper rad hose as compared to zero pressure when you had it open or had just put it back on. It shouldn't build up diddle anytime quick for pressure but if it does or continues this barfing out to the recovery tank that's a lousy sign or a positive looking reaction for the head gasket doing this. Some engines can get combustion pressures or exhaust pressure in thru intake manifold gasketing also - hard to know for sure in some which is the culprit.

Notes: The engine isn't adding pressure by some pump. It's merely the expansion of coolant that makes for pressure. Example - if cooling system cold is 14 quarts is might be 15 quarts when fully warmed up - that much and you can see that in the recovery tanks as marked FULL cold and FULL hot. They are both right at the proper temps.

The effect of all this is that the coolant won't boil for 3 extra degrees F. per lb of pressure. Average 15lb pressure caps then are allowing even plain water not to boil at up to 257F - really! Those #s are pretty close to reality.

WARNING!! WHEN YOU RELEASE PRESSURE ON COOLANT/WATER THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN OVER THE BOILING POINT WITHOUT PRESSURE IT CAN AND WILL FLASH BOIL!!!! MANY HAVE SEEN THE GEISERS COME OUT OF RADIATORS AND OF COURSE THAT IS VERY, VERY HOT AND CAN SERIOULSY HURT OR KILL YOU WITH BURNS. TAKE ALL CAUTIONS AGAINST THAT - IT'S ONLY A CAR!

So - with the feel for pressures at the wrong times and too quickly or ability to repeat pressuring up along with testing for combustion fumes in rad or recover tank you are about as close to the diagnosis of a gasket failure as I know. Evidence might be seen on a spark plug to further be sure - may not with some.

NoteII: These head gasket can leak any which way they seal. They don't always put coolant into oil, or burn it so you see it out the tailpipe. Combustion pressures are way up there and can beat out the pressure cap and add the vapor.

When several attempts to purge out air, frequent barfing into recovery tank, lack of heat and overheat persists I'll call it diagnosed.

From there you don't know if more damage than just gasketing is the trouble. It's expensive and fussy work - heads should be sent out for inspection and planing as needed or declared NG.

That would not be a DIY friendly job and certainly seek second opinion(s) before a job like that IMO.

If it comes down to that I suggest going for it. New oil change, tune-up, hoses or other items while apart especially if the car is to be kept.

I tend to think this is the bad news too. Hope not but be sure as you can,

T