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john_sprout
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Feb 16, 2010, 2:33 PM
Post #1 of 10
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Engine coolant question
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I have a 1997 nissan altima with about 100k miles:
Statement and question:
I drove my car the other day to go shopping and when i parked it i heard a loud bubbling/boiling sound and saw that the engine coolant was bubbling. 30 mintes later i got home and saw that the engine coolant was all gone from the cannister that holds it. I filled it up shortly after and ran it for a bit. When i was done some of the coolant had gone away again.
Car did not show overheating on the guage while driving or when i parked.
What are the possible problems? Is there a problem?
Thanks
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Feb 16, 2010, 3:28 PM
Post #2 of 10
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Re: Engine coolant question
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Two things come to mind as possibilities - it really was overheating and failed to indicated it and or the head gasket is blown, putting gasses into the cooling system,
T
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john_sprout
Novice
Feb 16, 2010, 4:02 PM
Post #3 of 10
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Re: Engine coolant question
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Thanks Tom.
Now if it overheated does that mean i should have the thermostat replaced or flush the coolant system?
If it is a blown head gasket the car would become immobile? I can still drive the car. I turned it over just now for 15 minutes, not really moving it much but revved it a lot and turned on the heat and AC on high blast for 10 minutes. No negative results.
Thanks
John
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Feb 16, 2010, 4:45 PM
Post #4 of 10
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Re: Engine coolant question - empty tank then stable for now?
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Diagnosis incomplete so far so don't go nuts yet but be on guard. Remember - just filling the recovery bottle doesn't mean the system is full. When it cools any air left in radiator or engine as it contracts will suck back coolant from that tank if it can??
It could have been a fluke with thermostat or other issue and may not do this trick again. Actually it's better if it starts to and you can catch it as I'm sure you don't feel confident with it right now. Carry premixed coolant with you till this is solved.
A clue that you are low on coolant is the heater will blow cool air when hot is requested. If you can stand it (don't know temps you are dealing with) run the heater. When and if it goes cool on you, pull over and fill it again or get to safe spot without the boiling over if at all possible.
Again, for now carry extra and be ready for whatever. If it stays steady and consumes no more it may remain a mystery but would probably show again. Check often. 'Bout the only thing I can think of is if a bag on the road temporarily blocked air and is missing now and perhaps nothing is really wrong but that a stretch!
Check oil. Evidence of milkiness upon multiple checks would not bode well for a good head gasket. Head gasket can go without putting coolant in oil though too so still inconclusive. Try to note if electric fan is operational - that could explain it too if not.
I've seen a thermostat stick shut and work again but it's not common. More than likely as said this will show itself soon and really do try not to overheat hard as gasket or not it could still cause further damage.
Tell me/us any other observations. Lots of qualified techs here to suggest away as needed. Good luck, be ready,
T
PS: Yes - a true head gasket failure would render the car imobile except perhaps the short run (few hundred feet) to get into a shops bay....
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john_sprout
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Feb 16, 2010, 5:06 PM
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Re: Engine coolant question - empty tank then stable for now?
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As i had the heat on and the AC, both fans were working fine. There was no bubbling/boiling of the coolant although i had it on for 15 minutes and i would guess it took me closer to 25 miutes to get to the store. I live in NY so heating the car would be fine. There seemed to be good enough hot air as time went on like it normally does. The car wasn't smoking at all.
I am curious as to why it went from boiling to all gone within 30 minutes.
I am going to take it around the neighborhood tomorrow or thurs, keeping it within a 5 block raidus and see if the coolant remains it its level. I will definitely have coolant with me at all times now and as you stated about the oil i will check that in the morning.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 16, 2010, 5:31 PM
Post #6 of 10
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Re: Engine coolant question - empty tank then stable for now?
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If heat never quit it may have been over pressurized with combustion gasses but that should have quit soon after shut down and heater near always quits when either low coolant level in engine (tank alone isn't a true indicator unless all else is known right) or a true boiling overheat as even steaming hot air won't transfer heat at the heater core whereas coolant will.
Re: Boiling to all gone: It still had some in engine if heater worked unseen at tank. It's early but this seems like a head gasket so far and they don't usually fix themselves but may correct a couple rounds before staying trouble. Don't use sealers as that will only make a true fix that much harder.
It's aggravating when the trouble won't make itself clear and seems to have fixed itself - not usually!
If - note it's still if - head gasket is adding gasses the system would pressure up way too fast from cold as felt at a radiator hose which shouldn't squeeze indicating system operating pressure till several minutes and might do it faster. Hard to define that in exact time for you. They do make exhaust gas detectors for cooling systems which can help pin it down but still may be inconclusive. I'd hate to blame a head gasket and be wrong as it's a bit of work and or money or both! If so I would go all new coolant and an oil change too with that job which isn't DIY friendly,
T
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john_sprout
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Feb 16, 2010, 5:46 PM
Post #7 of 10
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Re: Engine coolant question - empty tank then stable for now?
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So if i continued to turn over the car for a few days and it were a head gasket, i would know soon enough, say within a few days of continuos turning over?
I had an oil change maybe 1 month ago. Radiator flush was last done around sept.
I wanted this car to last until the summer, but i am not sure if it will now. What is the general cost for a head gasket, if it is a head gasket, so it can be fixed? Is it a big job?
If i flush it again it could ease the "head gasket problems" if it is a head gasket problem?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 16, 2010, 6:45 PM
Post #8 of 10
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Re: Engine coolant question - empty tank then stable for now?
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Cost of head gasket job if needed: Hard to say exactly. Mostly labor intensive and if a real keeper you would want the head sent out to be checked or planed to true if warped or a crack - even shops will send them out. If all looked real good and you want to gamble just the parts and crossed fingers can work if no warpage but you would take the risk.
They can run a grand or more to do. Less if you cut corners perhaps but a risk of doing it all over again right away. Early yet IMO as you don't have all the signs and I could never be certain of much of anything on a forum but suggest likelihoods. It would still take testing to be sure. I hate making the diagnosis for folks in person as being wrong (not yet) would be really embarrassing!
Again, it should make itself clear soon with use. On the lighter side, if it did need this you would have the satisfaction and piece of mind that it's done and you could consider keeping the car longer if it's worth it otherwise and you wanted to,
T
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john_sprout
Novice
Feb 17, 2010, 8:27 AM
Post #9 of 10
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Re: Engine coolant question - empty tank then stable for now?
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Tom,
I turned over the car today for about 20 mins. I eventually turned on the heat (not circulating inside button) and it was maybe room tempertature but if i hit the gas it got very hot. I let it sit for 20 mins and then opened up the cannister and did not hear a pop. I looked at the stick for the oil and it was black/brown. I opened up the cap as well and it looked fine. I did not see any whiteish mixture or anything like that. When i looked inside the cannister it was pretty green but it did have some light brown in it. But it looked more like light brown-rust stuff as the majority of the antifreeze was green.
Does this info help at all? If it were a head gasket i would see signs already or have to keep looking as it might not show this early?
Also, just to recap, the original antifreeze that" went away" has to go somewhere...so if not a head gasket might my car be ok with the diasappearing antifreeze? Where could the antifreeze go?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Feb 17, 2010, 9:09 AM
Post #10 of 10
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Re: Engine coolant question - empty tank then stable for now?
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Here's a typical (not yours) head gasket,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That gasket is sealing everything from everything - some shown in first picture/diagram. You can see how many ports there are for leaks of oil, coolant and combustion area to leak either way, in out or sideways!
This may not be a head gasket at all. Other unseen coolant leaks can be the vent between bearings on shaft of water pump that may only leak while moving and under way and by chance don't leave much evidence.
Typical (again not yours) water pump showing vent hole,
That could be one or two on vehicles top or bottom. If you can't see it with a dental mirror or something you may need to take belt and pulley off of it. If any "green" (that's your coolant color" traces or crust of traces or washed clean area but dry upon inspection it's the likely culprit. Zero coolant should ever show there. Some of those will only show up with a pressure test or some will seal with pressure driving you and me nuts!
Any place coolant is, hoses, heater core, radiator, the frost-freeze-core plugs, intake and head gaskets - anywhere could leak. With a pressure test it may show up on ground/floor and chase it up to the source. Some will behave cold and not warm.
Note: Coolant will not dry as fast as plain water - in fact quite slowly. Just saw strong dyes you could add for sale at parts store such that if this is slow enough it would help find it. It could be so slow that if you take this out for oil changes they may be topping it off and not letting you know it took some hence, as it shouldn't need any you are unaware for a long time perhaps.
Sometimes taking plugs out will show one cleaner than others indicative that, that cylinder is burning coolant. If slow enough it wouldn't make the tell-tale white smoke/steam out the exhaust excessively.
My whole point is it need be found and diagnosed as if it's not a head gasket job and you do that it was in vain! I can't say the life expectancy of a head gasket as some are notorious and some last forever??!!
Again (think said before) start engine from cold and feel upper radiator hose while cold - no pressure now - then, and it will take several minutes to warm and the expansion makes pressure. Shut down and look everywhere for leaks or evidence. If none found OR it never builds up pressure OR it builds up pressure in the first minute that would be informative. Keep at it, we'll find it,
T
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