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charging an a/c system from empty
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David's
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Jun 27, 2018, 2:59 PM
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charging an a/c system from empty
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Hello, this is my first post here, I have a question about charging a farm tractor a/c system using cans. I have pulled a vacuum on the system and left it overnight to see if it held(which it did). my question is that it says on the cans not to charge under a vacuum. What exactly does this mean? open the line and let air back in first before adding refrigerant? that doesn't make any sense. am I missing something? Thanks for any help
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Hammer Time
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Jun 27, 2018, 3:24 PM
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I have no idea what they mean by that. The system should definitely be under vacuum when the first can goes in.
I Hope you know what the exact specified charge weight is for that vehicle. Don't just wing it or go by pressure. It has to be accurate.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 27, 2018, 4:16 PM
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! David's: Same, no idea how you could suggest that - no way- doesn't add up.
Just what is this system, which refrigerant used and have to ask what was the reason to need to do this at all?
The still most used would be R-12 and R-134a a maybe for R-22 if a separate unit not using the engine. Unless all factory and reasonably new suspect there's little exact info for most specifications. That probably means what I'd call "tweaking" the system with a ton of info and readings all fast and at once then slow to the finish.
There's a post locked up top worth the read for charging a system means forget if it say into a well held vacuum is step ONE. Known fixed is presumed. It's still pages long.
Let's stop now till we hear just what this is with what info you have plus what equipment you have to work with. Yes - I could talk you thru charging an unknown capacity system it's a ton of reading complete with typos if by me. Can be done and also take HOURS to finish off without going over the right amount.
Waiting for your answers let's take it from there. If by chance this is the refrigerant called "Freeze 12" it is all different and I'm out as I wouldn't use that junk come hell or high water only TMK that's all DIYers can use in Canada for example near sure. Can understand a real Farm Tractor for real use isn't so easy to just take somewhere also.
Your turn,
Tom
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David's
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Jun 27, 2018, 5:01 PM
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So what I'm working on is a Massey Ferguson 3070 farm tractor with a factory cab that I just purchased used. Its a 1990 so it would of originally been a R12 system. I see a sticker on the compressor where it was retrofitted to 134a by the dealer that sold the tractor new to the original owner. The a/c wasn't working so after a little investigating I found a blown hose going from the compressor to condenser and replaced it. I pulled vacuum and it tested ok. I have ordered a new dryer with a port for high side as there is only a low side port on it. The refrigerant is called frost enviro12a that I got from Napa here in Canada. it says on the can under directions for use Do not charge into a vacuum, leak test the system. Let me know your thoughts, I do have someone not too far that I could drive to, I like do do things myself if I can and I do have some of the tools like a vacuum pump and gauges. Thanks
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Hammer Time
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Jun 27, 2018, 5:04 PM
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My thoughts are through that stuff in the trash. R12 would be best, R134A if that's not possible.
That stuff is not approved for use in the US.
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David's
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Jun 27, 2018, 5:08 PM
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What about red tek refrigerant? Ever heard or used it? sold her in Canada at Canadian tire
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Hammer Time
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Jun 27, 2018, 5:10 PM
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Department of Justice
Office of Public Affairs
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Thursday, May 14, 2015
Enviro-Safe Refrigerants Agrees to Halt Sales of Unapproved Flammable Hydrocarbon Refrigerants as Direct Replacements for Ozone Depleting Substances
Enviro-Safe Refrigerants Inc. of Pekin, Illinois, has agreed to pay a $300,000 civil penalty and cease marketing and sale of unapproved flammable hydrocarbon refrigerants as substitutes for ozone depleting substances (ODS). ODS are being phased out of production and importation because they deplete the Earth’s stratospheric ozone layer. As part of the United States’ transition away from ODS, the Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) Significant New Alternatives Policy (SNAP) Program evaluates and approves substitute refrigerants so that they can safely and legally replace ODS. EPA evaluates these potential substitute refrigerants according to health, safety and environmental criteria. The Clean Air Act addresses ODS and establishes standards and requirements where a substitute for an ODS is sought to be introduced to the marketplace.
According to the two-count complaint, filed simultaneously with the settlement today in the Central District of Illinois, Enviro-Safe allegedly violated Clean Air Act requirements through the marketing and sale of two flammable hydrocarbon refrigerant products, ES 22a and ES 502a, as substitutes for ODS without providing the requisite information to EPA for review and approval. EPA has not approved any flammable hydrocarbon as a replacement for ODS in systems not specifically designed for flammable refrigerants and has warned that use of flammable refrigerants in those systems presents a risk of fire or explosion.
“With this settlement, Enviro-Safe will pay a penalty, stop its nationwide sales of unapproved flammable refrigerants and ozone depleting substances, and notify consumers of potential safety hazards from these products,” said Assistant Attorney General John C. Cruden of the Department of Justice’s Environment and Natural Resources Division. “This civil action illustrates how the requirements of the Clean Air Act guard consumer safety and the health of our environment each and every day.”
“The actions Enviro-Safe will be required to take under this consent decree will protect consumers and the environment from a potentially dangerous product,” said Regional Administrator Susan Hedman of EPA.
In addition to paying a penalty and halting non-compliant sales, the company will also state on the label of any flammable refrigerant, its website and other marketing materials that the refrigerant is “flammable to an open flame or spark” and to “proceed with caution if used in systems designed for non-flammable refrigerants.” Labels must also include any use restrictions for approved substitutes. The company will notify by mail all known past customers that purchased products labeled “ES 12a,” “ES 22a” and “ES 502a” of potential safety hazards associated with such products.
The consent decree is subject to a 30-day comment period and final approval by the court. A copy of the consent decree is available on the Department of Justice website at www.usdoj.gov/enrd/Consent_Decrees.html.
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Hammer Time
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Jun 27, 2018, 5:14 PM
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Do you want to turn this thing into a bomb?
Both of those so called refrigerants are hydrocarbons which make them highly flammable.
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David's
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Jun 27, 2018, 5:20 PM
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Well that is good to know, that would explain (do not charge into a vacuum) So I will try to find some 134a or take it to someone. Thanks
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Hammer Time
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Jun 27, 2018, 5:27 PM
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I don't know what the story is in Canada but that R134A is available everywhere around here. You can even get some R12 on E-bay.
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(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Jun 27, 2018, 5:28 PM)
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David's
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Jun 27, 2018, 5:34 PM
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I just called someone nearby that does that work, so I will drive it up there tm. I have another that needs to be looked at also, but I would still like to find a way to do it myself if I can get some 134a on ebay. Thanks for your help, I don't know why they are allowing the sale of that stuff here in Canada
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 28, 2018, 1:56 AM
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David's: Hammer Time and anyone: I'm out if this isn't going to put back to 134a was R-12 new Canada was hysterical to get rid of that even before it was installed no doubt. R-12a is the junk you want to avoid I called Freeze-12 is NOT R-12 at all rather a fake of junk. Other junk is also flammable as "HT" said make this a bomb!
The product has specific installation details of charging by liquid or some fool thing I just stopped and said forget learning more about it - it's a FAILURE. You could use dang propane and make it work just know YOU or are the BBQ or occupant(s) of the thing.
I'm in New England, MA to be exact. 6 North-East US states the top three abut Canada's Quebec and New Brunswick. I get the idea been there never to work on anything so at a loss of course.
I suggest this or PM me = Private Message. No messing with Canadian Laws on a forum at all - just forget it. 134a is going to require a Canadian certification to even handle it, buy it or help you or just forget having A/C and make up fans. I know it can get gawd awful muggy and hot about now in particular. It also ends. MA isn't huge into large farming anymore can't think of a farm large enough ever consider A/C in a tractor would rather on purpose it came without long before the hysteria.
Understood that serious real Farm equipment age is no consideration suspected right away. If this is yours find the right service and pay an obscene fortune to have A/C in the thing if you must. If this is a job for you or you work for the farm just say this isn't part of what you can do. It's out of hand to me to be portable with equipment to be totally equipped to service this level of size alone never mind that we are talking A/C. Rock and a hard place.
Choose a plan B for this is what I'd do. Strong guess this tractor is needed to use now and for this season it's the exact wrong timing to tie it all up over A/C do without this season figure it out in the off season probably best.
Bon chance mon ami, (French = Good Luck my friend,)
Tom
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Discretesignals
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Jun 28, 2018, 5:58 AM
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Oh boy, if that system has been exposed to air and moisture for a long time, you know the oil is contaminated. Might want to drain the oil out of the compressor and make sure it turns freely. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to flush out the rest of the system and install new PAG oil.
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 28, 2018, 6:44 AM
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Said I'd stay out to not make a huge thread this gets out of control to me. Hard to know the cab of this or if somehow put a roof unit on it may be possible. Just not my area but would ask around and probably easier to power it rather than compress anything off an engine or use some PTO (power take off) not used if possible right to a generator/alternator that could give you electricity to power it.
Such a PITA all around to have A/C in a thing most need fixing or the work done on location. Good grief, you could easily be 500 miles from proper help!
Back one bit. DS just brought up PAG oil is trashed. It about has to be by now so if any refrigerant was on hand now this isn't going to work out just fail again. A/C anything isn't not pro friendly you seriously need to understand how easily doing anything wrong can just destroy all attempts to make it work. That's why I said I would NEVER want that an added monster headache to a machine that just can't be down when you need it. This scene really stinks!
Tom
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David's
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Jun 28, 2018, 8:15 AM
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Thanks for all the input, I drove the tractor about 20 minutes up the road this morning to a shop that does A/C and all auto mechanic work. they will be charging it with 134a. So hopefully it will be working well later today.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 28, 2018, 9:37 AM
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OK. Guess there's no harm in trying. If shop is equipped super well maybe try to get a spit of oil out if it can be tested. No way to know how it was retrofitted now ages ago or which oil was used. Hope it's marked. Slight chance as 1990 134a was very rare that it used an oil called Ester I think may be the oil of choice for this.
Sorry sport, there's just so many maybe issues on top of anything ordinary about it just have to hope it works.
Side note may mean little to nothing. I only heard backwards of history of 134a put to use think it was factory installed by some Saab vehicles prior to the end of R-12 which NATO countries agreed upon in 1993 use up what was stocked for new things and mid model years switch to 134a. That exact year for vehicles on the roads for US at least can't speak for Canada it was a mess that year here!
T
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Hammer Time
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Jun 28, 2018, 3:23 PM
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That was a good decision. Let us know how you make out.
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David's
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Jun 28, 2018, 6:11 PM
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So the tractor was ready to go in the afternoon, nice and cold. He didn't find any leaks. I have another to get done next week, I'm waiting on a new rad hose that should be here tm. SO I'm pleased with my decision. The whole idea of trying to do it myself started after a couple of bad experiences with having a technician recharge the A/C on other tractors I,ve had. One of which was blowing a hose on the way home from getting the A/C fixed and another on the same tractor was the compressor locked up and tore out its clutch the first trip around the field after the guy left. anyway al is good for now. Thanks again for nudging me in the right direction
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Hammer Time
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Jun 28, 2018, 6:18 PM
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Yes, that is the point we try to make to people that think it's easy to fix their own AC. There are a lot of factors that go into AC repair and diagnosis that only experience can bring. Early compressor failure is the most common result of someone doing their own repair or charging their own system and not knowing what they are doing.
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