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monty101
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Aug 20, 2017, 7:30 AM
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I have been given an R4 compressor to put on my 1989 Jimmy s15.
I was told it was ok.
I am looking at it. It turns ok but when I try to turn the clutch is does not turn.
The R4 I took off which I will replace with this one sounds likd it is about to gernade. when I turn the clutch it turns ok. It was working and cooling but was extremely noisy. should I be able to turn the clutch on the one that was given me?
I thought it would be worth giving it a shot since all that holds it on is 3 bolts. I have some extra 134.a
and I have guages and a vacuum pump but I don't want to waste the time or 134A if the clutch is locked up.
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Hammer Time
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Aug 20, 2017, 7:45 AM
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Re: r4 ac compressor
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Yes the clutch is supposed to turn freely. The belt pulley should spin freely and the center plate should easily rotate the internal compressor.
But let me tell you, even if that compressor was good, it would soon grenade also if installed the way you are contemplating. There is a whole lot more to AC diagnostics and repair than tossing a couple parts at it.
The first thing you look at is, why did that compressor fail? They rarely fail of old age. It is usually due to an external cause that is raising pressure and working the compressor too hard. Usually a fan or air flow problem through the condenser.
The next thing to look at is....... that noise in that compressor is due to torn up parts. The pieces from these parts were sent through the system and into the condenser. A partially clogged condenser will lead to damage to the compressor.
So, to summarize, this job is not as simple as slapping a used compressor on it, especially the R4 which was one of the weakest compressors ever made.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 20, 2017, 8:22 AM
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Monty - what's making the noise the clutch or the compressor itself? Do you understand they are two different things? If just the clutch bearing or a fault with it you can just replace that without messing with refrigerant at all.
Not knowing with this other R-4 you could just cause a disaster for nothing,
T
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Hammer Time
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Aug 20, 2017, 8:26 AM
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Changing a clutch on an R4 requires special equipment and setup as it is a pressed on clutch. The R4 is a disposable compressor, you can buy a whole compressor for the price of a clutch. Beside a clutch noise wouldn't go away after warm up.
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monty101
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Aug 20, 2017, 9:41 AM
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I am definitely going to replace the compressor, accumulator and orfice tube. I looked closely at the compressor after I took it off and I saw no metal shavings and it turned over easily.
I have no idea how you determine what was causing the noise. It sounded like it was going to gernade. So I will relace everthing that comes in the kit. It only made the noise when the clutch was engaged. Of course if it was not engaged it was not compressing either so I don't know if the slutch was the problem or not.
I did cut a window into the cover over the evaporator last year to remove debrea that was stopping the air from coming out the vents. that definitely improved the air flow. I sprayed evaporator coil cleaner on the evaoporator to clean it. I will check it again when I put it back together to make sure it is still clean. I put a new fan on it too last year.
I have no idea how you determine if the condenser is bad. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Hammer Time
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Aug 20, 2017, 10:02 AM
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You aren't going to see the metal debris. It has been washed downstream already.
There is no way to determine if the condenser is plugged and most of them now are bypass type and can't be flushed that's why they are changed automatically with an internal compressor failure. Some people say you can compare temps at various parts of the condenser but that idea doesn't work very well. There could also be a cooling fan clutch problem that led up to this.
Examine the old orifice tube carefully. If it has any metal on it, you know the condenser does.
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(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Aug 20, 2017, 10:12 AM)
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monty101
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Aug 20, 2017, 11:31 AM
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thanks
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monty101
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Aug 20, 2017, 2:03 PM
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Well I was going to pull the orfice valve to see if it had any metal on it like hammer said but it was in backwards. It was about an inch down in the tube and impossible to reach. That may have something to do with my compressor problems. I can't believe it was cooling. I saw no metal on the orface valve after I got it out so I guess the noise was just the clutch because the compressor has not gernaded. At least that is what I am hoping. I know I may regret it.
I had to use a sheet metal screw to screw into the orfice valve to pull it out. When it came out my hands were gripping the vice grips and they slammed me in the eye pretty good. It was stuck tight. I gave up once before it finally came loose. I flushed the line from going into the evaporator coil out the orfice tube. I'll order my parts tomorrow.
I guess you should close this if you want. I can carry on by myself now I think. Thanks for your advice.
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Hammer Time
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Aug 20, 2017, 2:20 PM
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The orifice tube for this vehicle goes in the condenser outlet and it uses a special black tube that does go in reverse or normal tubes.
The screen side inserts first.
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(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Aug 20, 2017, 2:20 PM)
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monty101
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Aug 20, 2017, 2:31 PM
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yeah mine was put in backwards based on what you are saying. The screen was pointed away from the condensor.
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Hammer Time
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Aug 20, 2017, 2:34 PM
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Was it even the correct tube?
The correct one has support legs on the opposite end.
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monty101
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Aug 20, 2017, 5:12 PM
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Yeah I think it is the right tube. The tube has the dimples on it that are supposed to keep the orfice valve from sliding too far into the tube.
The orfice tube is on the discharge side. One end of the ac line comes to the orfice valve from the condenser and the other end goes from the orfice valve into the evaporator coil. I did not see the legs you are talking about. Maybe they are inside the firewall housing where the evaporator coil is.
The line then comes out of the evaporator coil at the top and goes to the accumulator and on to the compressor. Then the other line from the compressor goes to the condensor.
I am through for the time being with it. I got a big knot on my nose and some bark got knocked off too. My wife got home and asked what did the other guy looked like. She said I almost broke my nose. I took some tyleno. My head has finally quit hurting.
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Hammer Time
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Aug 20, 2017, 5:17 PM
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The reason I question it is because it would be about impossible to insert the correct tube the wrong way. The legs would hit the crimps long before it inserted all the way into the tube.
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(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Aug 22, 2017, 8:34 AM)
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Discretesignals
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Aug 20, 2017, 5:27 PM
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It's all fun and games until you punch yourself in the face. Don't feel bad. You do it long enough and you're bound to cause self inflicted wounds. I've punched myself in the nozzle and bent the frames on glasses plenty of times. It's the right of passage. Why don't you think we show our faces on the forum?...lol
Since we volunteer our time and knowledge, we ask for you to please follow up when a problem is resolved.
(This post was edited by Discretesignals on Aug 20, 2017, 5:30 PM)
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monty101
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Aug 21, 2017, 11:32 AM
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well Hammer the dimples are abouit a foot 1/2 from the evaporator coil. They are in the ac tube which is in two pieces that are connected together about a foot from the evapoator coil,. After you unbuckle the nut connecting the tubes the dimples are visible on the tube about the length of the orfice valve from the now opened up tube closest to the evaporator. You are supposed to drop the orfice valve into the tube legs first so the legs will go in and catch on the dimples, that will leave the screen sticking out towards the top of the tube toward the condensor. You are fine if that is what you do.
But if you drop it in screen first it will drop in and only stop because the legs finally hit and hang up on the dimples. Now the screen is in front of the dimples pointing toward the evaporator coil not toward the condensor and the legs are way down in the tube caught on the dimples.
The legs are now still visible but about an inch down in the tube. Impossible to reach with needle nose pliers. To get it out you have to run a sheet metal screw into it and jerk it out.
Yeah I know why did whoever did it drop the valve in backwards. Blank happens I guess.
I got this ac to fix and two more behind it to do too.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 21, 2017, 12:04 PM
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With care if down too deep - a sheetrock screw might get that out,
T
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Hammer Time
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Aug 21, 2017, 12:09 PM
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Are you sure you are even installing it into the correct place. This is supposed to go into the condenser itself.
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Sidom
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Aug 21, 2017, 1:00 PM
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Most orifice tubes will have an arrow on them to indicate the refrigerant flow.....
If you look close on the pic HT posted, you can see the arrow
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monty101
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Aug 21, 2017, 1:34 PM
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thanks for the pic. This would mean that the orfice valve I pulled out was put in the wrong place. I can see how it could
have happened. I myself thought it went where I found it just because of the dimples on the pipe. It's easy to get
to and it made sense that where I found it was the right place for it to be.
I did already find another pic but unfortuantely it did say or actually show where the orfice valve is inserted into the line. Thanks for sending me a pic and telling me where the valve goes.
It probably still has a orfice valve in it down at the condensor. Only one way to find that out I guess.
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Hammer Time
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Aug 21, 2017, 2:07 PM
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That's what the service manual tells me. Make sure that spot has something to hold it in place.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 21, 2017, 11:03 PM
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? Some "O" tubes (hey this is old and doomed R-4 style) were put in lines, some in condensers this would have almost no chance of being OE anymore. Hoses were sold with the "O" tube or condenser. It worked if both were in place very erratically but worked so might not hear about it or declared normal for the thing.
Uncertain to these if sold new were altered to aftermarket ideas for the dang tube and hose set up would be. Already has been said this was a throw away compressor think new whole trick was just get it off warranty A/C wise could be unknown what was OE looking to get them out of dealer's hair.
Tough chassis SUV I know of no second owner's springing the bucks to fight with A/C on these or the S-10 (Chev nameplate) of the same for long,
T
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monty101
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Aug 22, 2017, 7:03 AM
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Great looks like you remember those old trucks and may have worked on them.
Yesterday I talked to the owner and he knows the orfice came from the factory with the orfice in the tube because he owned the truck when it was first purchased and his son is the one who first replaced the orfice and it was in the tube then and he is the one who put it in backwards. He is the one who told his son how the orfice went in the tube and he is responsible for it being put in backwards
So, I think I am good to go. I do not think the factory sent the truck out with an orfice in both the compressor and the tube. Thanks for clearing this up.
(This post was edited by monty101 on Aug 22, 2017, 7:37 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Aug 22, 2017, 7:26 AM
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Yes Monty: These were trouble out of the gate or some lasted like a lot of things. What didn't work bought new (OMG) can't say how it was fixed? Then folks later found two "O" tubes and wondered why it wasn't behaving. By the books it should show "O" tube in the "condenser" (you've transposed word 'compressor and condenser but get it) if not there it's in the hose. If you just replaced a hose you better know what you bought.
Did (I'm asking) we find out where they noise really is? If your old compressor was good you should know the difference between it failing or the clutch. It could have both wrecked? One way would make noise when engaged the other only when OFF. That simple.
No it's not simple to do just a bearing on many. You can though I do especially when a belt system requires it as a pulley at least it's easier than hunting down now compressor delete brackets for those that must have it in place or nothing works.
It's all OK, what I can't know to get this going is how much pain tolerance you have to get it all working properly cost wise? They did work, some a long time some rattled new so what can I say?
What I don't know is if there's a whole kit to dump this and find an A-6 to just get over the whole problem and last another 30 years if it didn't rust out without hassles,
T
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Hammer Time
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Aug 22, 2017, 8:36 AM
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I think I would at least open that fitting and verify there is nothing in there because the factory manual says the tube was put there.
PS, I deleted that tube picture as it was making the thread too hard to read.
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monty101
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Aug 26, 2017, 9:47 AM
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I decided to replace the shroud. I went ahead and pulled the radiator and looked at the condenser. i ran a bolt in the line to make sure no orfice valve is hiding in it. There is no orfice in it. GM did not put any dimples in the line either so you could not put a orfice in it if you wanted to. Blew the entire ac system out with air. I then orded 150 pag oil with dye, oring kit, gram scale to weight the 134a can. It takes 40 oz. and shroud and some vacuum pump oil. I am hoping I should be ready to get this thing cold again now.
(This post was edited by monty101 on Aug 26, 2017, 9:50 AM)
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