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tnora
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Mar 17, 2023, 1:46 PM
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Have a 1991 mits Montero 105178 miles. Clutch burned up. This was new complete clutch replacement 2 years ago. Clutch kit, engine crankshaft seal kit, clutch master cylinder, resurfaced flywheel, and new transfer case and transmission gear oil. It had 570 hi way and City miles on it. Towed it to the shop. I'm wondering what should I expect them to find that caused this premature failure? Any feedback would be helpful for me. I'm hoping they will do a complete repair with no cost to me.
(This post was edited by tnora on Mar 17, 2023, 2:58 PM)
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Hammer Time
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Mar 17, 2023, 2:52 PM
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Re: Montero Clutch
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This depends on what kind of failure it had.
If it had a hydraulic failure, it's very unlikely it could have been prevented.
If the clutch disc is simply worn out, that is usually a driver caused issue. Some people are very easy on a clutch and some just never learned the right way to drive a stick and slip the clutch way too much.
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tnora
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Mar 17, 2023, 3:04 PM
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Re: Montero Clutch
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Thanks for your feedback. This might be something the shop brings up when they tear into it. I know the clutch fluid reservoir was full. There was no loss of clutch fluid I saw. The clutch disc had less than 600 miles on it.
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Hammer Time
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Mar 17, 2023, 3:08 PM
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600 miles in 2 years?
That would make the hydraulic system highly suspect. Hydraulics don't like sitting around like that.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 17, 2023, 7:18 PM
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tnora: Can you explain how this only went under 600 miles?
Was it in storage and who drove it?
A clutch can be ruined in no time/miles or last indefinitely. IDK tell us the miles if outside it was always rusted like brake rotors you see thru wheels friction metals like that go bad and self-destruct are vented to outside air. You can't just look at them to see that - same car brakes would be screwed up as I just said IDK wheel type at least front brakes are disc type look right at them when driven would shake hysterically a low use problem for outdoor cars even ones not sold new,
Tom
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tnora
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Mar 18, 2023, 2:01 PM
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Re: Montero Clutch
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This vehicle isn't in storage. It always has 10-20 miles put on it every couple of months. The majority of the miles are from May to Nov. It's gone from a primary family vehicle over the years, to a fourth vehicle with light duty use around a family mountain cabin association. The clutch slippage problem always occurred while going up hi-way grades. The factory clutch failed at 104,000+ miles while going up grades. This rebuild failed while going up grades. I remember now that after the first couple of months of getting the rebuild, I noticed the slippage. Traveling up from foothill elevation to mountain elevation at 50-55mph, the rpm needle would swing up to 4000 and then settle back down to 2500 with no change in mph. Would drive fine when at my destination, which was level roads. The repair shop is at level road valley elevation, so they were never able to test drive it up grades after the rebuild. This last breakdown happened while driving up the hi-way grade, the same hi-way grade it has been traveling on since i drove it off the dealer's lot in 1991. I hope the repair shop can look beyond the clutch plate and find out what is causing it to slip on the flywheel.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 18, 2023, 3:02 PM
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OK. Clutches wear out from either being way out of adjustment as in no free-play. Feel that with a finger on pedal at least 1/2" IMO is just room to not "self-ride the clutch" is like resting foot on one a disastrous habit.
There isn't near the friction material on a clutch as brakes both friction items.
Like brakes in many ways the metal surface if rusty would wear out the friction lining fast and may or may not give a clue or go without notice it's not able to "STALL" an engine which a good one should.
When a load (hills, hill starts, or stopped using clutch to not roll backwards will wreck them real fast = driver error/mistake, untrained driver was brought up.
That "Free-Play" is there because when in use (notice this on another vehicle) you lose some free play under load NORMALLY give it room you don't notice it's slowly slipping at first.
A 4th car for a perhaps some retreat place you and others now if so driving this thing so little might be fine if garaged AND folks know to shift quick not make long smooth shifts the other bad habit.
IDK if there's any way to check for wear or rust pits without it coming out? IDK if you ask then a decision just do a new disc or what from what is found.
Most clutches (hydraulic linkage type) are not adjustable but I suppose could be wrong right away with all new stuff. If a pushrod from master to pedal isn't right with free-play right away it's never going to be.
Same concepts I have had a bad master the centering hole wasn't drilled new deep enough later to find a whole bunch were made not caught so a mass defect.
The pressure to hold it locked is the pressure place has springs you feel that with foot retracting it. If that somehow was all wrong, a spring broke or wrong spec it's a parts issue on top.
Trouble for you is the time passed since done. It clearly isn't working properly usually worn out but shouldn't need the full job of 2 years ago can't really know until it out again.
BUMMER! If not defective parts or rust will show thin and was hot from slipping I think I still stress that the FREE-PLAY is the game anyone can check if when none it's going to fail soon,
Tom
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Hammer Time
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Mar 18, 2023, 3:11 PM
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If everything you are saying is fact then you have to have been put together with incorrect parts if the clutch slips right out the gate with your foot totally off.
There is no way anything could have worn out that fast. The problem has to be with the repair.
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tnora
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Mar 18, 2023, 4:10 PM
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Everything I've mentioned happened, so hopefully you're correct and it's a bad part or parts. I'll find out later this week and see if that's what the shop says. It would be nice if they could test drive it on an uphill grade or create a resistance load on the tires to replicate a grade to test the clutch through all the gears.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 18, 2023, 4:12 PM
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Could be? It's hard for me/us (?) to know the conditions and use it got of course.
Just a note + side info. STD shift cars became rare where I am but are out there. If or when asked to check a used car for someone would put it in gear like 2 of 4 with brakes on hard. Now make it fight the friction just quick enough should if allowed stall most engines.
I would say "pass" for the test but can't say how long time/miles are left.
Some plain never replace them others if car kept expect them back never really learned it. In fairness it's hard to be nice to a clutch in uphill traffic jams and not roll back some cars (owned one) had a foot parking brake is a real pest like need 3 feet vs center pull parking brakes. Buying used and knowing your usual is key most opt for auto trans over it,
Tom
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Hammer Time
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Mar 18, 2023, 4:13 PM
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Can you take off in 3rd gear without stalling the engine?
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tnora
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Mar 19, 2023, 11:16 AM
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I can try taking off in 3rd when it gets out of the shop. I never tried that in the past. Should a 1991 Montero be able to take off in 3rd? How does this test determine the condition of the clutch? Thanks.
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Hammer Time
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Mar 19, 2023, 11:26 AM
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That is a test to determine if the clutch is actually bad. Taking off in 3rd gear should definitely stall the engine before the car gets rolling. If it doesn't stall, the clutch is slipping severely.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 19, 2023, 12:03 PM
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? It's at the shop so what do they say as of today or last work day?
The idea is FOOT off pedal in a gear the clutch wins over the engine for this example. If it just burns it's bad.
Just thought of a wild maybe I never have had is if so much oil could get on friction parts it would slip. So far a never - problems yes not slipping.
Back - any hydraulic failure totally should be like you can't hit pedal to release clutch.
Last is some layouts if a motor/trans mount is so bad it lifts up so high it releases itself that's more mechanical clutch linkage far more than hydraulic linkages, Tom
* Mechanical: Cables, rods, pivots using engine and body. Not this thing?
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tnora
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Mar 19, 2023, 7:19 PM
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Shop hasn’t looked at my Montero yet. They said they are backlogged and will get to my vehicle this Tuesday or Wednesday.
Also, there were no signs of fluid leaks. The clutch reservoir was full and there were no signs of exterior leaks. About 100 miles ago, I changed the engine oil, filter and examined other components underneath the vehicle and didn’t notice any problems. But from the information I’ve learned here on this post, there could be an interior leak that could affect the friction of the clutch plate. I’ll pass on what the shop discovers.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 19, 2023, 10:46 PM
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OK. Waiting for what is found. If you can ask for pictures if while inspecting it also gets fixed what it WAS. You said you'll "pass" on what they say? Is that no to what is suggested or you'll accept it?
This is unique. Super low use vs no use or lots of use it's justified somehow.
Curious that 1st post mentioned a crank seal kit is engine oil most seep normally if pouring out would run out of engine oil. Dry friction as raw basics of how these work should sling off lube of that oil and still grab. Unsure of how effective any tricks to sole a leak there would last time wise never mind miles??
Awaiting your report on what is found this HAS to leave evidence of why.
Whatever it is the value of this is not to let it happen again for all concerned. This could help another is a publicly viewable thread but bet a one-of -a-kind for the use this vehicle has had. Good luck, Tom
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tnora
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Mar 31, 2023, 4:16 PM
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Re: Montero Clutch
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I picked up my Montero from the shop today. They replaced the clutch plate with a new one and they resurfaced the flywheel due to the glazing on the flywheel. No charge for this repair since the clutch failed within less than 600 miles from the original clutch rebuild. They had to remove the transmission again to do this repair. The shop owner said the rest of the clutch parts, hydraulics, etc. are in great shape. He told me that the clutch was not broken in, after the previous complete rebuild. I told him I was never told I was supposed to break it in. He apologized for that. He said the flywheel had glazing on it and the the clutch plate was ruined. I've learned a lot about clutches and how slipping can occur. I also mentioned that I never knew a clutch had to be broken in. When I bought the Montero new from the dealership, they never mentioned breaking in the clutch. He said the break in period needs to be 500+ city driving, or 1000+ hi-way driving and only flat terrain driving. No hills or hi-way passes, etc. so now I'm stuck trying to drive more than 500 city miles when I only use the Montero in the Sierra Nevada mountains at 6000 feet elevation and I live at 400 feet elevation. Maybe I'll put it on jacks and rack up miles while shifting through the gears. Any suggestions for breaking in a clutch quickly will help me. Thanks!
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Hammer Time
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Mar 31, 2023, 4:47 PM
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Almost 60 years in this business and I have never heard of such a thing. That is complete nonsense.
I also have concerns about resurfacing the flywheel twice. They took off an awful lot of metal.
There's a good possibility that was the reason for the failure and it may happen again.
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(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Mar 31, 2023, 4:49 PM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Mar 31, 2023, 11:30 PM
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Lot of years HAMMER! The Titanic was awful wasn't it?
tnora: It was glazed - a self inflicted issue IMO the break-in period would end before you picked it up but think lack of use constant "gun rust" then you just said these GONDOLA runs up a mountain isn't for standard shift driving unless one gear all the way perhaps it's always self cleaning off.
All learning or hearing lot this a first for low use and type of use.
It NEEDS USE OR SUPER DRY STORAGE! New vehicles unsold over a year have issues brakes notices (opposite action but idea the same - FRICTION) GO bad need all new in 100 miles or less of use pocked, and lumpy feel at some point can't use a rotor again (NEW) same idea with flywheel.
No more good old days when those items were triple what was needed or metal.
For you (my collection of stuff too) use them or lose them low, low mile or dry storage if to be sudden use all on trickle chargers or would all be new batteries for lack of use too.
My end all (never) suggestion is how these vehicles are stored. Is an art to drive up mountains AND back down this case don't use clutch as a brake let brakes cool often - it's a pest but the way it is.
Good luck with this job now, change the storage ways for this use and don't let people drive them that don't know how (wild problem where I am nobody drives standards in fact #1 for those who don't and never owned a car at all - Boston, 400 years old is NOT where I am but is less than 20 miles as the crow flies away or a 2 hour drive! After that you need a boat! :-)
Good luck, Tom
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Hammer Time
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Apr 1, 2023, 4:02 AM
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Brakes and a clutch are quite different when it comes to parked rust.
When parked brake pads only contact one spot on the rotor so the rest of it is exposed to the air and will rust.
A clutch is different in the fact that the entire surface contacts the flywheel, disc and pressure plate together leaving no surface open to the air for rust.
The theory that a clutch will rust up while being parked for a long time doesn't apply.
This clutch never should have gone bad.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Apr 1, 2023, 4:27 AM
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Agreed. Swings in temp, humidity still can pock (sp?) metals, perhaps springs and pressure plate parts? IDK, once a year I find wild and wet dew inside an outdoor car - everything + stuff doesn't appreciate it in general, Tom
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tnora
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Apr 1, 2023, 9:43 AM
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I searched online about break in period for new clutch. There are numerous articles and there seems to be a general consensus from mechanics and auto shops and auto message boards going back to early 2000's, that there is a break in period. One response was from the BMW M5 message board that explained the break in time is related to the number of shifting through the gears and not focused on the amount of miles driven. BMW released a TSB about clutch break in, 800-1000 shifts for break in. The scientific statement was "This procedure helps to create a carbon layer between lining and metal friction surface which generates the required coefficient of friction."
Here's the link to their TSB, which was ignored by the USA dealer network, according to the message board. I'm using this BMW source for reference only. I know my Montero was manufactured in Japan. I've never owned a BMW, but I'm sure their engineers are very knowledgeable about coefficients of friction.
Tom, you mentioned oxidation build up due to vehicle storage. Just to be clear, my Montero is parked in an open driveway and I start it and drive it at least a couple of miles a month. It's never left parked for months unused. Also, I live in the San Joaquin valley which is low humidity. Very hot and dry. This is complete opposite climate of the Boston area. Rust still develops here. The shop never mentioned any problems with rust on the flywheel. Other than not mentioning a required break in procedure after the first clutch rebuild, they have been very reliable on repairs for my Montero and Chevy sonic and Subaru forester. I'll be breaking this in gently and soon will be ready to ascend the Sierra Nevada mountains.
Copy link and paste in browser to see this BMW TSB
Link deleted ............ not allowed
(This post was edited by Hammer Time on Apr 1, 2023, 10:15 AM)
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Hammer Time
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Apr 1, 2023, 10:20 AM
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What exactly does "break in" mean.
You are just driving it normally which is what you would be doing for the rest of it's life anyway. What does break in prepare for?
Once a clutch is engaged it doesn't matter how the car is driven, it shouldn't be slipping. The only thing that wears a clutch is excessive slipping when engaging it and excessive use so what are you preparing it for.
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Tom Greenleaf
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Apr 1, 2023, 11:19 AM
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This is Asian thinking, isn't it? Don't compare it to real Euro. I've never seen a "break-in" period listed or suggested - maybe I missed it.
Not many as said I know of anymore once the rule automatic was real costly.
Disc we are talking about is a wearing item made to cushion shifts a bit any slight roughness to surface would be gone before it left factory new.
If you must (got some years here between us OMG!) those that were adjustable for lash would leave more by a little so any quick wear would put it spot on hopefully. I drove stuff first myself before a car/truck left fix it right away - but nothing I know of is adjustable anymore for this.
HERE'S A MECHANICS ERROR I THOUGHT OF! If when installing a trans to flywheel YOU/TECH let one hang before bolting it snug it can warp a new disc! It must be supported (trans) some fussy to mesh with splines don't just leave it there hanging. THAT'S MECHANIC ERROR might be shaky feeling soon hot spots unseen that or greasy hands touching all the wrong parts but doesn't plain wear it out just feels lousy.
WEAR should be zero or close to it some will last untold miles - that's the driver's habits.
Anything all hills and stops is just not easy to do with standard shifts. I had two while in Denver a lot higher sometimes stops and starts - DON'T ROLL BACKWARDS a smidge butt heads behind would of course almost touch waiting to get going again :-) learn how.
Long novel again by me actually know a person that didn't know how to drive anything but was a train wreck with left footing brakes ruined them -- I bought that thing and driving it now mostly is an automatic.
You got a 100K out of first I think you said for that or some of that type driving forgiven for wear.
Last > Bad parts a nightmare for me now blame cloned parts for aftermarket unsure of dealer parts new sometimes find cloned junk in their boxes! For this there wouldn't be enough friction material to be wrong out of the box,
Tom
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Hammer Time
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Apr 1, 2023, 12:06 PM
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Back to the resurfacing of the flywheel.
If this is the type of flywheel you have and this picture is a Mitsubishi flywheel, every time you take metal off the surface you are moving the surface further away from the pressure plate reducing the spring pressure on the disc which will cause it to slip.
The following is a factory TSB for that vehicle concerning flywheel resurfacing.
NO.: TSB-93-21-001
DATE: April, 1993
MODEL: All
SUBJECT:
FLYWHEEL RESURFACING
PURPOSE
Comments have been received from service technicians requesting flywheel resurfacing limits. In response, flywheel resurfacing is NOT RECOMMENDED for any flywheel when resurfacing would require more than 0.5 mm (0.013 in) of material to be removed. During clutch repairs, if a technician encounters a flywheel where resurfacing would exceed 0.5 mm (0.013 in) of material removal for a smooth surface, replace the flywheel.
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