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ronz28
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Mar 15, 2008, 7:19 AM
Post #1 of 28
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Morning! This is in response to an '02 Grand AM GT, 3.4L V6. One day, as I was trying to leave Kroger's, it wouldn't crank. Click, yes, crank no. I ended up finding the positive stud broken off of the starter solenoid with the cable attached. I had the solenoid replaced at a local armature repair shop and they bench checked the unit and off I went.
After finishing the starter, the car fired right up and everything seemed well. Then, strange things happened. The very next time I started it, the starter continued to run while the engine was running. I listened to this for about 5-7 seconds before killing the engine. I have started it several times since then and that has not happened again. I am now getting the battery light on in the dash, quickly followed by the ABS light. Using a multimeter, I measure 11.4V on the battery, while engine not running. While running, it drops about .5V.
I've snugged up the connections on the starter and the negative battery post a little more to ensure a good connection. I have checked obvious fuses and have even removed ALL fuses (under hood, driver side, passenger side) and checked them for continuity. I have not purchased the Haynes for this car, yet, but I believe the fusible link is good because the voltage I read from the alternator output, I also see on the positive battery post.
Autozone hooked up their tester and said bad alternator, even after I explained these events. I disagree. I feel there is a fuse I can't see or another simple fix. After all, the alternator was fine before my starter escapade. That would be some coincidence. What would you check next?
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DanD
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Mar 15, 2008, 7:45 AM
Post #2 of 28
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Re: How can it be?
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With everything you’ve just told us; yes it sounds to me that you’ve an alternator gone bad. If by chance that the alternator is a fault then you’re also suffering from the ever since syndrome. This syndrome has pledged automotive technicians since the invention of the automobile.
The excessive draw from the starter when if failed may have caused this or what you have already said “coincidence”; the two different systems are only connected by being on the same vehicle.
Dan
Canadian "EH"
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ronz28
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Mar 15, 2008, 8:39 AM
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Re: How can it be?
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Thanks for the response, Dan. I will take the alternator to Autozone or Advance and have them bench it. What was up with the starter continuing to run after the engine was started?
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DanD
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Mar 15, 2008, 12:28 PM
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Re: How can it be?
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More then likely when the starter was reassembled, the plunger in the solenoid was misaligned or a bit of dirt got in there and caused it to stick. Today’s starters are very fussy; which is why I replace as a unit rather then repair. Not that a repair can’t be done but if another piece/part of a gear reduction starter fails, a customer doesn’t want to hear they have to spend more money on another patch.
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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Double J
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Mar 15, 2008, 12:36 PM
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Re: How can it be?
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Just to add about the starter...the late model starters on GM's are PCM controlled...
Yours may be ...
I'm not 100 % sure on yours..some late built 02's were...03 and up for sure.
Read this for an explanation of how they operate.
Should shed some light on the subject...
Let us know...
The Powertrain Control Module (PCM) controls the starter relay based on input from the key switch. When the Ignition switch is held in the start position for 0.4 seconds, the PCM start timer is activated. Once the start timer is activated, the PCM will continue to crank the starter until either the engine starts or a no start time limit is reached.
Occasionally, the fuel pump module will take one or two seconds to build fuel pressure. Often this will occur after the vehicle sits overnight. During some vehicle starts, the ignition switch key may be released before the engine actually starts. When this occurs, the engine will then continue to crank until the engine starts or the no start time limit is reached.
This is a normal condition and no repairs should be attempted for this condition.
(This post was edited by JIM N on Mar 15, 2008, 1:01 PM)
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ronz28
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Mar 16, 2008, 1:09 PM
Post #6 of 28
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Re: How can it be?
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UPDATE!
Autozone checked the alternator, it failed. I bought a reman, installed it - battery light on and 10.6V on the battery while engine running. I'm getting scared. I should have had them test the "new" alternator before I left. I hope it was bad and not something causing them to break. I'm heading back up now to get a replacement and have them test it before I leave.
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Double J
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Mar 16, 2008, 1:17 PM
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Quick question too.
How old is the Battery .
Batteries can take a real beating from alternator failures/starter failures and system cannot charge properly with a weak/bad battery.
Just a suggestion....
Get the battery "LOAD " tested...Autozone should be able to do this for you too.
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ronz28
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Mar 16, 2008, 1:35 PM
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OK, I'm taking the battery up for a load test. I'll update ASAP. Thanks for all of your suggestions.
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ronz28
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Mar 16, 2008, 2:04 PM
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The battery tested good. What else can be preventing the battery from charging?
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DanD
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Mar 16, 2008, 2:10 PM
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I agree 100% with Jim; if the battery has an issue then the alternator will take a real beating trying to recharge it; if it can at all, but it’ll die trying.
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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Double J
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Mar 16, 2008, 2:17 PM
Post #11 of 28
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Check the wiring...is everything ,wiring wise at the starter ok,nothing fried...all connected?
Do you have power at the alternator ,b+ terminal?...12V....
All wiring at the alternator connected and ok.
I'm not sure on this but some are PCM energized.
My concern is that the starter post was broken right? Did wires touch anything while live and toast a fusible link or maxi fuse?
Just some suggestions ...Let us know
Jim
(This post was edited by JIM N on Mar 16, 2008, 2:49 PM)
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ronz28
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Mar 16, 2008, 2:19 PM
Post #12 of 28
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Re: How can it be?
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Autozone says the battery is good. I'm re-checking all connections now.
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ronz28
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Mar 16, 2008, 2:47 PM
Post #13 of 28
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I'm leaning toward megafuse or fusible link, as well. Is the B+ connection the big red cable on the back of the alternator? If so, I read battery voltage - 11.7V. How should I go about checking the megafuse or fusible link?
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Double J
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Mar 16, 2008, 2:58 PM
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If you've got voltage at the alternator I would think the maxi fuse and or fusible link is ok.
You can check 'em for laughs anyway...underhood center should have big ol' monster fuses...check that all are ok..can test with a test light...fusible links are at the starter..I don't have a wiring diagram handy right now to check on the setup so i'm wingin' this.
Autozone said the new alternator checked ok?
What reading are you getting when the vehicle is running?
Stupid question,is the belt tight?...meaning ,is the serpentine drive belt tensioner working ok?
Rev the engine a little and see if voltage increases...Not sure on this ..but they use to have like a 40 ohm resistor in the alternator and light would be on until engine was revved up .
Just thinkin' out loud here
Jim
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ronz28
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Mar 16, 2008, 3:15 PM
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I really can't see where any fuses are, other than the ones in the underhood fuse box. The reading slightly decreases each successive start with no change when the engine is revved. The belt is tight.
I am using a multimeter and I get no voltage on the pins of the alternator. I don't have the manual either, but there's 4 pins (the plug only uses 3) and I can't get anything out of them.
I have the worst luck with cars, it seems. It's never simple, routine things like most people.
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ronz28
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Mar 16, 2008, 3:40 PM
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This is an edit. I don't know what changed or if I measured wrong, but the 3 pins appear to be inputs, not outputs. Measuring the pins on the plug, I get 11.5V, .39V and 5V. I am also not reading anything on the large guage red cable. Hope this helps.
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Double J
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Mar 16, 2008, 4:06 PM
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The big red wire at the B+ terminal should be live......12 V..if not HMMMMM...
Check wiring...
Especially near or at starter...when the starter post broke....did it touch metal....OR...did you disconnect the battery first before installing the battery and or alternator...suppose to if you didn't...
How many wires connect at the big post at the starter?..The battery positive cable and what else...sometimes there is a 2 wire into one clip kinda thing...check in that area for any fusible links that may have fried....basically part of the wire fries to protect a circuit instead of the whole wiring ...
No MAxi fuses on the vehicle...a lot of times there in a separate block at/near the firewall.
Since this occured at /around the same time as the starter....good place to check
Let us know
Jim
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ronz28
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Mar 16, 2008, 4:16 PM
Post #18 of 28
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I have only one lead connected to the positive post of the solenoid. There could be another wire that needs to be connected. I didn't physically take the starter out, so I can't say for sure, but I do know that the negative battery cable was disconnected prior to the work being done. Unfortunately, I can't raise the vehicle in its current location to further check around the starter.
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Double J
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Mar 16, 2008, 4:21 PM
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I would check there for sure...I believe there should be more/another lead at the starter.
Can you see down there at all from up top..I know its poured together ...but maybe you can see the wires coming across to the starter...
Can't remember all but there should be thick red wire...possibly purple wire too...
Wish I had my diagrams handy today but anyway,I think we may be on to something here.
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ronz28
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Mar 16, 2008, 4:34 PM
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I can see the solenoid relatively well. There is the braided ground wire, the positive wire and what is the smaller wire I have connected? I don't feel any other wire dangling, but I guess it could be pinched somewhere out of sight.
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DanD
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Mar 17, 2008, 4:43 AM
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This diagram may help you sort this out; Remember that this diagram only shows the charging circuit; I’ve added the S terminal on the starter solenoid which would have a purple wire to it. S meaning the start terminal
At the alternator you should always have battery voltage at the red B+ terminal (bolt on terminal) and at the orange D terminal of the plug
The red B terminal of the plug should have approximately 5 volts on it when the computer turns on the alternators voltage regulator. The test procedure for this says to use a scan tool and command the computer to turn on the regulator. But I think if you test for the 5 volts while the engine is running, the computer should be supplying the 5 volts or close to 5 volts.
The gray wire is a sensing wire so that the computer can watch the duty cycle of the regulator, it’ll have a low varying voltage on it but you’ll have to back probe the connector to check this. It needs to be connected to the alternator or it may look like it’s a dead circuit.
I know it seems a lot more complicated then it should need be but with these high output alternators and the load they put on the engine; the computer has to know what that load is so it can adjust idle to avoiding stalling.
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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ronz28
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Mar 17, 2008, 5:12 AM
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Thanks Dan. I'll be lifting the car this morning. As for the "S" connection, would that be the small guage wire I have connected to one of two shorter, smaller posts on the solenoid, or another wire altogether?
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ronz28
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Mar 17, 2008, 8:09 AM
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SUCCESS!
You were right! I wired it wrong. I had a green cable connected to the braided ground wire post. Since I didn't take it off, I thought one wire went to each post. The engine is now running and I'm reading 15V on the battery!
Thank you so much!
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ronz28
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Mar 17, 2008, 2:32 PM
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Update:
Driving today, I realized the horn doesn't work and the turn signal blinks/clicks fast. What do you make of that?
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DanD
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Mar 17, 2008, 3:25 PM
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IT”S BROKE! LOL
Sorry I couldn’t help it. lol
Check your fuse for the horn it may have blown while you were screwing a round with the charging system?
Then check all of your external directional lights; that there aren’t a couple of blown bulbs. If all the bulbs “look” OK then replace the flasher unit. You never know what may have been hit with a voltage spike during the alternator issue?
Dan.
Canadian "EH"
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