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dave284
Enthusiast
Mar 4, 2008, 10:02 AM
Post #1 of 31
(5307 views)
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Hey Tom,need a little info, 84 351w c-6 3spd trans,how many rpms should it have at 55mph,and what speed should shifting take place btween first to second and second to third?, and what kinda compression would be consider normal? recently I installed a remans trans, the owner says it sounds like the engine is in strain in third gear,but I can't tell, years ago I had a astro van and f150 p/u 3spd that sound the same, try to idle down engine when I do its had to crank and runs ruff, just got a carb kit,next thing is checking plugs/wires/timming, boy this thing is a pain in the a$$  If you and/or the guys could help I would pay in fifths/pints/half gallons and maybe a gallon  
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 4, 2008, 5:06 PM
Post #2 of 31
(5294 views)
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Is this a real C-6? Cables to carb, vacuum modulator on trans and a centrifical RPM governor controlled shift speeds. My guess is 4200 RPM with pedal to the floor - the speed would vary by tire size and diff ratio. If this is hanging on to higher gears too long the cable (throttle position really) or the C-6 had an adjustment at the diaphram on the trans (I think)??
All (many) of my own if you just floored the car would shift up at about 45 then to 3rd at about 70 - give or take 5mph if that helps.
Again: Intake manifold vaccum dictates one way or the other thru hose, to perhaps brake line metal to hose again to the trans on the old guys. Leaks should make them downshift too early or late upshifts,
T
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dave284
Enthusiast
Mar 4, 2008, 9:45 PM
Post #3 of 31
(5291 views)
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Tom, this is for real, everything is mechanical but control module/neutral switch,I was going thru my manuals on that year and make, couldn't find much on the info needed, this the second carb engine I have worked on in 12years,I really need to update my info library.I have a old tach/dwell tester can't remember how to hook it up...green clip to coil black clip to ground hmmm,start back taking brain vitamins anyhow the carb been tampered with cause the factory caps are missing from fuel/air mixture screws,fuel is leaking at the fuelline to carb connection,turn idle down, shifts ok to me, but setting still, sound like its missing and running bad,tomorrow...doing compression check/timming check/spark check and then the carb.I did drive the vehicle and shifting it manually from first to second but when shifting to drive/third gear at 55mph I couldn't feel any change at all, there should be a little jerk if any at all, right? I haved check for vacumm leaks and found none. I gonna post some pic tomorrow.Its gonna be a long week btw thanks for the reply
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 5, 2008, 2:57 AM
Post #4 of 31
(5289 views)
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I don't know YOUR dwell tach - just hook up to coil neg.
Compression = 150s or so? Mine isn't accurate so I'm happy if readings are close, not the exact# . I use vacuum more than compression for testing. Engine in this should be about 8.5 to1 ratio.
Carb? Which one? Does this have the VV carb? That means "variable venturi" BTW and those didn't work out new so most were tossed. Tamper caps would be gone by now with any if for only cleaning. They were a stupid idea as the factory couldn't set carbs right so why did they think techs or want techs to fix them??
What is this thing? Truck - something with like police package?
C-6 and some others had a dual range idea that I think they quit that idea in the 60s. It only enabled 2nd and 3rd at one "D" choice and all three in the other. That was because engines were for real back then and would peel out on even wet pavement so you would use just 2nd and 3rd.!! That had to be a valve body style inside.
Bands are adjustable with a 1/4 square bar. I always used a 1/4 extension bar from a socket set (cheap)
How many miles on this engine? Timing chains did jump around on these!! Plastic cam gear aged - not just miles. Test that by rocking crankshaft forward and back and looking at dist rotor and how many degrees crank turns before rotor moves back and forth. 5 degrees is borderline!
T
Ps: I have some awsome old (I mean old) books on these trannys - the fueling of engines 1979 -1984+5 was a mess for Ford and others!
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dave284
Enthusiast
Mar 5, 2008, 9:52 AM
Post #5 of 31
(5286 views)
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Tom,this is a club-wagon van,is it better to go by vacuum than compression readings on this vehicle? couldn't find that carb in any manuals some simlar, looking for model #,the trans has (PRND21) this engine is no joke, I didn't adjust the bands cause the letter that came with it stated everything was preset.Theres 116000 miles on it and the guy said everything is the original on it.Thanks for the info Tom, will post pics and findings this afternoon.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 5, 2008, 12:12 PM
Post #6 of 31
(5283 views)
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Ok: This thing has a reman trans and customer isn't thrilled with how it shifts - right? Now you are taking on tune-up carb etc., at the same time. First the engine will need to run properly, if you can get it to idle smoothly at like 700ish RPM then a simple vacuum reading that shows a steady 18Hg or so pretty much says the engine is ok. Another trick is to take a smoke and put it over/around the dipstick hole while idling (if not too breezy from fan) and smoke should go into the tube not blow it out. If that works and idles well the engine is probably just fine mechanically - the smoke trick mean the PCV it able to overcome minuscule blowby which is great in an older vehicle. If not - the PCV system or other seals for anything with the crankcase could be the fault.
The C-6 reman really couldn't have shift adj pre-set which is just the cable (is it a bar/rod thing?) for throttle position. The sooner and more it pulls with the throttle the longer it holds lower gears or quicker to downshift. Same with the vacuum modulator at trans. Engine off and WOT is zero vacuum. So at the trans the spring loaded diaphram will be out or away any adjustment that makes it further out and away will make it downshift sooner or upshift later as desired. When you could adjust these things I prefer slightly later upshifts and sooner downshift as I don't like the lugging feel on the engine. That's somewhat counter to best fuel economy but probably better for the thing overall and better drivability.
Forget the bands - they are pre-set/done. If off they just have more lag time between shifts. That just sharpens up one that has some wear.
This person (if you can take it anymore) is going to have to let you have this thing for a while - drive it around with the doghouse off and fine tune adjustments as you have both the new trans and engine stuff going on at once. By any chance does the "Club Wagon" freqently have a full load of people? If so it will be happier with staying in lower gears or always feel like it's lugging. Bodies are actually quite a load
T
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dave284
Enthusiast
Mar 5, 2008, 1:20 PM
Post #7 of 31
(5280 views)
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i'm having trouble with camera,Tom
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 5, 2008, 1:53 PM
Post #8 of 31
(5275 views)
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Re: 84 351W INFO w C-6 Trans
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That's the best I could find for Google Images pics out there without going to page 4 million! Not much help with these and as I've said before - I can't post my own pics yet with some funky problem??
T
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dave284
Enthusiast
Mar 5, 2008, 2:42 PM
Post #9 of 31
(5274 views)
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Re: 84 351W INFO w C-6 Trans
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Tom, yep its a c-6 can't forget that one-peice bell housing,finally got that damm camera working right, its miller time or makers mark
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dave284
Enthusiast
Mar 5, 2008, 5:24 PM
Post #11 of 31
(5269 views)
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Re: 84 351W INFO w C-6 Trans
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I thought that would bring you out, glad to see replying W2O hope youre doing good.
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way2old
Veteran
/ Moderator
Mar 5, 2008, 5:28 PM
Post #12 of 31
(5267 views)
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Re: 84 351W INFO w C-6 Trans
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Just been lurking in the bushes watching you and Jim come up in the world. Tom is a good mentor if you stay with him. We have crossed paths for many years on these cyber garages. Nice to see new people take interest in the site. Keep up the good work. Glad to see the camera is working. A bald Carolinian may not be pretty.
Being way2old is why I need help from younger minds
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dave284
Enthusiast
Mar 6, 2008, 12:43 PM
Post #13 of 31
(5260 views)
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Re: 84 351W INFO w C-6 Trans
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You got that right, yea, you,Tom,Jim and the others are out there helping people and I admire that ,I try too, but I really consider myself a apprentice in comparison to you guys
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dave284
Enthusiast
Mar 6, 2008, 12:58 PM
Post #14 of 31
(5259 views)
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Tom, I checked the rpm at idle 700, the smoke test is positive, timming 10 degrees BFTC at 800 rpm, the throttle plate opens all the way with pedal to floor,fuel leaking at carb base gasket. Carb is a holly4b...I'm not sure but this carb might be a after market model#E4TE-9510-ARA?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 6, 2008, 2:05 PM
Post #15 of 31
(5257 views)
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Smoke test: Positive means is did draw IN smoke not push out of the dipstick? That's good.
The part # for carb is a Ford part # for 1984. I think Holley made the carbs for Ford with the MoronCraft logo and that might be a replacement for a VV job that I haven't seen since they were filling trash cans when new back then.
79-84 Fraud had some glue sniffing engineering going on and you've got one. The Crown Vic police cars were always broken so was a great time to speed around town
Carb leak: Try whacking the thing at fuel inlet with plastic hammer. Watch out for the fire! That might reset the needle valve which is probably flooding over, or float is set wrong or too heavy-sunken float syndrome.
You may have to go in there again - didn't you do a carb kit on it? Let me know what happens with that - it might need new float.
10 degree BTC timing was spec with the little gray thingy disconnected. Will run fine up to 12 or a touch more BTC also with some wear.
Funny but true: When these were new the vehicles came with a new owner's pamphlet the said "FORD - Employe Involvement is Job 1" Note: Employee was spelled wrong! Need I say more?
Keep at it,
T
(This post was edited by Tom Greenleaf on Mar 6, 2008, 2:07 PM)
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dave284
Enthusiast
Mar 6, 2008, 3:11 PM
Post #16 of 31
(5254 views)
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Tom,the smoke was pulled in,finally fond the leak...gasket carb to intake not the thick one,theres the carb,then the thick gasket then theres a plate which the egr is attach to it, then the gasket to intake,have carb off now, soaking in cleaner, the engine ran fine now that the idle was corrected, but everytime I brought it up then test drove it shifted hard and I really couldn't tell when third came in, also notice fast idle cam wasn't working,after carb is rebuild /installed , I,m gonna drive it while the tach tester is still connected and note trans changes, man this is no quick fix thing I'll keep you posted
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 6, 2008, 6:37 PM
Post #17 of 31
(5248 views)
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Smoke trick good. Raw gas shouldn't be at the base gasket to leak at all so there's more up with that. Did you rebuild the carb or get it done or get the whole thing as a reman? The cam for the fast idle should just fall to highest step if you just hold throttle open a bit, push choke shut and when you let the throttle cable return it should be on the top step. That is just gravity I think - and must be free to move.
The deal with the trans is it might not be going into 3rd gear - these weren't that smooth. RPMs would drop and you asked that at top post so I'll make a guess for 55 MPH that it should be about 2,000 for a HD van, less for cars I would think - bit of guessing with that. If you could go 65-70 if it was still in second it would be screaming at the limits!
Also note that the C-6 and most older genation trans types slowed the car down when you let off the gas unlike the newer ones that feel like they are freewheeling. The old boys could "chirp" the tires by just selecting 2nd or low at certain speeds - don't fool too hard with that!
Hey Dave - I know this is fussy stuff and it takes time. The thing can run properly. This is the end style of the 50s,60s and most 70s designs. Every operation done with the dist, carb, and trans (except for locking converters) is just done mechanically instead of some pre-set electronic control. Getting all adjustments just right was such a nightmare to manufacture and maintain that virutally all auto makers gave up to fuel injection, and shifting was electronically sensing load, speed and so forth.
Gotta laugh---- Bought a set of points for one of my machines (GM dist) and held them up to the light at the parts counter to check the point alignment (talk about getting starred at!!) and I said YES - they have to strike just so or they won't last or hold the setting (rolling eyes abounding) then I said I can't find my point alignment tool anymore as that was done before you installed new points!! The quality of the points contacting could be measured with an ohm meter which I still do - dwell tachs had a setting for that!
Keep at it. We are with you,
T
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dave284
Enthusiast
Mar 6, 2008, 7:25 PM
Post #18 of 31
(5244 views)
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Yea Tom, I'm in it deep, can't stop now, I beleive in what youre saying.....the ironic thing is I use to b***** about the sensors/puters back then, I havn't seen a fast cam made of plastic before mmm,no wire spring only gravity your on the ball oh there are couple of things not sure they would affect operation or not ,notice smog pump belt missing ,and the trans fluid that the owner bought was ATF, but I seem to recall these older fords using type F can't remember,I'm assuming autozone knows this stuff, did have some charts.....somewhere.BTW the kit he puchased was already open......hope all parts are there.
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 6, 2008, 8:11 PM
Post #19 of 31
(5243 views)
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Ok: Kit won't have all parts - mostly gaskets and new needle valve and the accellerator pump and a few mini clips that you may not need. Kits are for dismantle and cleaning. Other parts are separately ordered and a PITA to get. Some kits may have gaskets for a slightly different version that you won't use.
ATF.... Basically ATF is about 5 weight oil that is highly detergent and agressively resists foaming. It would matter over time if a specific type is suggested but I doubt right away. I think type F had less additives - not sure. See what the owner's manual says. The real old ones did say for Ford trans which was type F then the dextron/mercon thing got involved. It was Ford used on kind and all others were the same at one point. Again - I don't think that's the up-front issue but if in doubt there should be some universal ATF to use.
Let's hope w2o has called the red phone at the Maker's Mark distillery for a bulk shipment
T
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dave284
Enthusiast
Mar 10, 2008, 10:58 AM
Post #20 of 31
(5234 views)
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Tom, after chasing down the spacer gasket for the carb fially got it back together starts up and seem good no fuel leaks, getting ready do test drive, but I happen to knotice that when open throttle fully the 4barrell doesn't open at all the tang thats connected to it stops right at it , and the 4barrell mixture screw are all the way in as if someone already tried to cut out the 4 barrell from working, any ideas? could this affect the operation of trans far as shifting? and would it make the engine sound as its under stress?
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dave284
Enthusiast
Mar 10, 2008, 1:15 PM
Post #21 of 31
(5233 views)
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Tom, I tested the vehicle it shifted into 3rd at 35 mph and thats just driving normal, but when I got it 60mph the tach dropped to 1700 any speed under that its 2000 or more.??? is that normal?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 10, 2008, 3:27 PM
Post #22 of 31
(5232 views)
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Hmmm? Got me on this one for a moment? Do each of the four barrels have a mixture screw low in the carb base? Most 4Vs use just front barrels till more is requested - perhaps not with this one. Back barrels on some carbs won't open until choke (primary) is exactly fully open or that tang will stop them. Hold the choke by finger to fully open and see if things will work then - even push against any lash on rods which might need a tad of a bend job to adjust those.
Had more Quadrajet jobs than Holley or MotorCraft problems. Only a couple 4Vs ever on Ford products ever needed to be touched. Most of my own were just 2Vs. I really think whatever the carb does is ultimately shared by all cylinders equally but now I'm not sure - see what you did!
If in fact this intake and carb behaves as separate carbs then the vacuum reading for the intake manifold would be screwey at an area just for that part but I've never noted that?? That could send bad info on to the trans and improper shifting. Check where the vacuum hose connects to the manifold to see what it says at idle and at quick revs and under a load if you can do it with the doghouse off while driving it or brakestand it.
Let me know about those needle valves. The trick with dual carbs and things was to cancel those one at a time, count turns from bottom and have them all drop idle speed the same for perfect balance.
Get the four barrel to work no matter as it really doesn't save gas if that was ever a thought - it's all in the way the thing is driven,
T
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dave284
Enthusiast
Mar 10, 2008, 4:44 PM
Post #23 of 31
(5228 views)
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Tom, I tried the quick revs and it cuts out also the 4bl didn't open either, do you
remember the device on the right side of the carb we talked about ,its attached to the 4bl plates and only way to open it is press throttle all the way open and lift up on the shaft I'll try another pic so bare with me,its that thing on right in pic #389 I think you said it had something to do with barr-pressure?
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Mar 10, 2008, 7:54 PM
Post #24 of 31
(5224 views)
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It's that sucker - right? That diaphram thing might be sensing zero or low vacuum to allow rear barrels to open - not sure. If you pull up on the rod will the back barrels then open - that just by hand and watching - engine off? That could be the pull off for the choke instead - I'm just not sure. When cold, does the choke crack open some when just started? If it's way off and opened all the way it would just bog out with any throttle till warmed up.
Do you have papers the come with the carb kit? They might help a lot right now!
T
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dave284
Enthusiast
Mar 10, 2008, 10:13 PM
Post #25 of 31
(5218 views)
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Tom, that's one is almost identnical to mine, yea, the back ones can only be open by pulling that shaft up , only with the throttle held wide open same time, the choke plate was set 3/16 in. and when the engine hot its not completely open, the choke plate is not true vertical, if I rev it fast it bogs out, that diapham has no linkage to the choke but it attaches to the carb with 3 screws and a hole w/o-ring going to side of carb,I'm gonna see if can take a pic of instructions that came with kit ,it has the whole diagram of carb and post it, the pics was the tang that connects to the back barrels it didn't move what ever speed I went
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