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wildmerman66
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Mar 18, 2011, 2:21 PM
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ISC trouble '89 Cadillac
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I have installed a new ISC motor and connector on my '89 Cadillac El Dorado (V8 4.5/273) but I am still recieving trouble code E30, which is ISC motor out of range. The car continually stalls while in park and when putting it in gear. I have changed the ECM, installed a new temp. sensor w/ pigtail, new battery, the altenator has passed the test, and there are no vacuum leaks detected. However, the ISC motor is still unable to steady the idle speed. I'm guessing the timing may be slightly off but isn't the distributor supposed to try and automatically adjust that? Does anyone out there know the specs for as how far the actuator screw should be screwed into the ISC plunger? Or will the timing need to be absolutely accurate in order for the ISC to function properly?
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Hammer Time
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Mar 18, 2011, 2:31 PM
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Re: ISC trouble '89 Cadillac
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You're misunderstanding a lot of what is going on here. The ISC out of range doesn't mean it's bad. it means it is trying to overcome the problem and reached it's limits. The other thing is that the although the computer will take care of the timing advance, the base timing has to be set manually while the computer is in bypass mode.
You have something effecting the idle and that's what you have to find. It could be a vacuum leak, EGR valve sticking open, timing, misfire and about a dozen other things.
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wildmerman66
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Mar 18, 2011, 4:29 PM
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Re: ISC trouble '89 Cadillac
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Thanx Hammer Time,
The EGR valve was on my checklist but I didn't take it off because I didn't have the gasket or the sealant (if sealant is nec., been awhile since I removed an EGR valve). I will check that out but can you tell me how would I "unstick" the valve because I really don't want to spend $110 on a new one. I will also have the mechanic fine tune the BASE timing because I know it is currently not 10 degrees BTDC. I really appreciate you taking the time out to answer my concern... any more tidbits for me?
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Hammer Time
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Mar 18, 2011, 4:39 PM
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Re: ISC trouble '89 Cadillac
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You should be able to re-use the EGR gasket. They are made of asbestos and usually stay whole.
When you remove it, look at the pintle and see if it is fully seated closed. The commonly have big chunks of carbon break off and get lodged in the pintle, not allowing to to seat closed. If you can get it to seat fully, leave the vacuum line off for the time being when you put it back on. If it cures the problem, then put the line back on and see if it remains OK.
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wildmerman66
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Mar 24, 2011, 9:23 AM
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Re: ISC trouble '89 Cadillac
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Hammer Time,
I'm trying to adjust my timing for the '89 Cadi... The book says that I need to disconnect the ALDL connector and hook up a fused jumper wire to it. I have no idea what the ALDL is because the book does not provide a picture nor do i know what a fused jumper wire is. I called Pep Boys to see if they sell fused jumper wires and the salesman after a thorough check said they do not sell them. Any ideas? Or is this a step that I can bypass?
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Hammer Time
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Mar 24, 2011, 3:38 PM
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Re: ISC trouble '89 Cadillac
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No, you can't skip that step. It takes the computer out of play while you adjust. The ALDL is the diagnostic connector under the dash. You just need to jump A and B together. you can use a paper clip.
Make sure you're not looking at the connector upside down when you look for A and B.
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wildmerman66
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Mar 31, 2011, 10:13 PM
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Re: ISC trouble '89 Cadillac
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Man Hammer Time you are a life saver... Thanks a million, bro. Would you happen to know if this is on the driver's side or passenger's side? So, let me get this straight... I stick each end of the paper clip in terminals A and B of the ALDL and then simply adjust the timing? I wonder why the book failed to point this out to the home mechanic...Yesterday, I put a "new" remanufactured starter in that I purchased from Auto Zone. Once I finished hooking everything up the car fired right up. Went out to do the timing this morning and forgot to reconnect the electrical conn. to the distributor after loosening the hold down bolt and twice tried to start the car up. It simply turned over but would not start. Reconnected the electrical conn. and then couldn't get ANY power upon turning the ignition on. Hooked up the jumper and the starter made that clicking noise. Could I have damaged the starter in trying to start the car w/ the dist. elec. conn. not hooked up? Gonna exchange the starter tomorrow morning. Good thing for warranties!
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Tom Greenleaf
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Apr 1, 2011, 3:25 AM
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Re: ISC trouble '89 Cadillac
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Quote: ">>Could I have damaged the starter in trying to start the car w/ the dist. elec. conn. not hooked up?<<"
This vintage of Cadillac isn't my strong suit but unless timing was so far advanced and that causing way too much resistance for starter to crank engine I don't think the distributor could kill the starter. If you continue to crank a starter too long you can kill a new one as they get too hot for that. That motor is not intended for continuous operation. 10-15 seconds then a few minutes to cool for the next try.
If sounding like a small machine gun now it isn't getting enough amps and cables/connections or battery in question,
T
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Hammer Time
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Apr 1, 2011, 5:17 AM
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Re: ISC trouble '89 Cadillac
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If i remember right, the connector is at about the middle of the dash, above the hump and below the radio.
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wildmerman66
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Apr 6, 2011, 11:44 AM
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Re: ISC trouble '89 Cadillac
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By the way Hammer Time thank you for all your great help. As I stated before you are a life saver. I was able to set the timing with your great help. However, I am still receiving trouble code E30 so I need to set the minimum idle speed because as soon as I crank the car the RPM is anywhere between 1400-2100. The book says the minimum is 525 RPM. What I need is for you to bring a few of the book's instructions into home mechanic/novice lay terms for me. These are the instructions according to Haynes manual:
2.Connect a tachometer in accordance with manu. instructions. (I have an old school "HAWK" w/no instruction booklet, so where would I put the connections?)
3. I now know where the ALDL connector is thanks to you so what I've been doing is putting a U-shaped paper clip in terminals A & B of the ALDL. Is the way I'm using the paper clip suitable?
4. Shut off engine, remove the air cleaner, disconnect the THERMAC vacuum hose (if equipped) and disable the charging system by grounding the green test connector located in the wiring harness at the rear of the altenator. (What would I ground this green connector with and I don't see a green wire at the rear of my altenator? What is this green connector? )
5. Using a pair of fused jumper wires, fully retract the ISC plunger by applying 12 volts to terminal C of the ISC motor connector and grounding terminal D. (What are FUSED jumper wires [can I again use paper clips for this step?] and do I buy these at the store? Do I use my battery to supply the 12 volts or can I use my battery charger, which has selections of 2, 20, 60 and 250 amps w/12 volts? Which amp selection would be best used w/the charger? I would rather use the charger because I have nothing to lead from my car battery and send the 12V to the ISC connector.)
6. With the ISC motor fully retracted, the plunger should not be touching the throttle lever. If the plunger is contacting the throttle lever, turn the plunger inward (clockwise) until there is clearance between the two and the throttle lever is resting on the minimum idle screw. (Huh? First is says make sure there IS clearance then it says the lever should be resting on the minimum idle screw. Are the plunger references in regards to if the minimum idle screw is removed?)
8.Check and adjust if necessary the TPS setting (see Chapter 6) w/the minimum idle speed set to specification.
9. With the voltmeter still connected to the TPS, fully extend the plunger by applying battery positive voltage (12V) to terminal D of the ISC connector and grounding terminal C. ( Tested the TPS connector and received a reading of 10V. Then tested the voltage on my TPS sensor and I did not receive a reading w/the throttle fully closed and fully open. I used 2 diff. voltmeters. Is this because the min. idle speed is so out of whack?)
10. The TPS voltage should be between the Specs listed (0.44/.55-4.0/4.5 V) w/the ISC motor fully extended. Turn the ISC plunger as necessary to achieve the correct spec. (Am I again turning the idle screw? Will this change the minimum idle speed if I am again turning the screw?)
I would greatly appreciate a little clarification, brother...
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Hammer Time
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Apr 6, 2011, 12:03 PM
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Re: ISC trouble '89 Cadillac
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The fused jumper is just a safety precaution. Just use small jumper wires to power the ISC back to fully retracted with it unplugged. You can use your battery for that.
The ISC plunger should not be touching the throttle lever. The throttle lever should be touching the base idle screw in the TBI housing. This is not the ISC that they are referring to. It's a manual stop screw. Don't confuse the ISC plunger with the base idle screw in the TBI. The base idle screw is what gets adjusted to the 525 while the ISC is completely backed off.
I wouldn't mess with the TPS until you get the idle situation straightened out.
Make sure there are no vacuum or EGR leaks anywhere before doing this.
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wildmerman66
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Apr 6, 2011, 11:28 PM
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Re: ISC trouble '89 Cadillac
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Hey Hammer,
Mucho gracias senor. But I have a question, how is it that the throttle lever should not be touching the screw in the plunger? Wouldn't I damage the ISC if I screw the screw in too far in order to create a little space in between the two? Thanks for your earlier tip, I finally saw the base idle screw, it sits in the TBI housing right behind the ISC motor and there was so much grime on the throttle body that I couldn't read the TBI marking on the throttle body. So this is the screw I screw in order to attain a 525 minimum idle speed, right? I will clamp paper clips in the jumper wires which are coming from my car battery to the C and D terminal of the ISC connector and this will be sufficient in order to fully retract the ISC plunger? Can I send a jumper wire from my electronics ground box to the alternator's green test connector with a paper clip hooked to it in order to ground the alternator? By the way the A & B on the ALDL should have jumper wires in it too during this process, right? I bent the same paper clip, in a U shape, and stick it in the A and B, is that sufficient?
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
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Apr 7, 2011, 5:29 AM
Post #13 of 14
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Re: ISC trouble '89 Cadillac
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Adjusting the ISC for the proper clearance is part of this process but you have to make sure it's electrically fully retracted first so it has the proper range when it's plugged back in.
Unplugging the alternator should world just as good as grounding it if you don't have the test connector.
I'm not sure if jumping the ALDL is in the instructions. It shouldn't be necessary because you are already unplugging the ISC but that may set a code that will have to be cleared later so jumping it out may be the better way to go. Double check the instructions.
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wildmerman66
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Apr 7, 2011, 5:14 PM
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Re: ISC trouble '89 Cadillac
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Thanks again Hammer,
I do not have the test connector for the alternator so I will unplug it at the bottom. I assume this is the plug you are speaking of? Today, I ran a jumper wire from the negative terminal on the battery and stuck a paper clip into the test connector that was clamped to the jumper wire. I was able to get the ISC motor to retract and fully extend using jumping wires from my car battery w/paper clips clamped to the end of the jumper wires. I ran into some problems though.
I hooked the jumper wires up to the ALDL because step 3 in the Haynes manual for minimum idle speed adjustment says, " Ground the diagnostic test terminal on the ALDL connector. Set the ignition timing (refer to Ch. 1 timing specifications and procedure)." The driver information center continually read, "SET TIMING MODE". So am I supposed to hook the ALDL connector back up since I set the timing at 10 degrees BTDC???
After retracting the plunger on the ISC motor, I was able to get some clearance between the plunger screw and the throttle lever and had the throttle lever sitting on the base idle screw. I left the electrical connector to the ISC motor off while turning the base idle screw but I was unable to get that bad boy to idle at a minimum of 525 RPM. I turned that screw until it was all the way in and the lowest that made it idle at was 900 RPM. So I ended up putting the base idle screw back in the exact same position it was in because I had not touched it since the trouble code began reading E30 (ISC motor out of range). Prior to that it was idling perfectly. Right now it's idling at a minimum of about 1400 RPM. Way too high!
My other problem is that I am not getting any volt reading from the TPS. The voltmeter is reading zero when I put the leads in the ground and signal terminal the voltmeter reads zero. I have the voltmeter switched to V 1000 and 750. Should I be switching the voltmeter to another selection in order to attain this reading or what? Or does the fact that I still have those jumper wires in the ALDL totally throw this off?? The TPS elec. conn. is reading 5 volts which is what the manual says it should be. I am doing what the manual says and this is what it reads, "Check the signal voltage of the TPS with the throttle fully closed, then gradually open the throttle to full throttle. There should be approximately 0.44 to .55 volts with the throttle closed and 4.0 to 4.5 volts at full throttle. The voltage should increase smoothly as the throttle is opened." "If the readings are incorrect, the TPS may need adjustment or the sensor may be defective." I am hoping that a simple adjustment is all it needs because I do not want to spend money on any more parts for this car.
The reason why I am bringing up the TPS is because of the lack of a reading on the voltmeter and because the manual says, "A broken or loose TPS can cause intermittent bursts of fuel from the injector and an unstable idle because the ECM thinks the throttle is moving." However, I am NOT receiving an on-board diagnostic trouble code for the TPS.
After I fully extended the ISC plunger I checked for voltage in the TPS and got ZERO (Again, is this because I have the voltmemter on the wrong selection?) This is what the manual says to do after fully extending the plunger: "The TPS voltage should be between... with the ISC motor fully extended. Turn the ISC plunger as necessary to achieve the correct spec. Disconnect all testing instruments and reconnect the ISC motor connector. Turn the ignition key Off for at least 15 secs., start the engine and check for proper operation of the ISC motor."
Please Hammer Time let me know what I am doing wrong.... By the way, is there any way I can give you an A+ rating on here?
(This post was edited by wildmerman66 on Apr 8, 2011, 12:28 PM)
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