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Erivera6
User
Oct 19, 2010, 12:04 PM
Post #1 of 24
(12617 views)
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Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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2002 Ford Windstar has 156K miles 6 cylinder 3.8L. Ok I think i got all of the information you need. The CEL has been on for a while but no obvious problems until last week it started to stumble and/or jerk while driving. Then while at a stand still it would go under 1 RPM and act like it was going to stall but never did. We took it in to AutoZone to have them "read it". The guy said it just said engine not getting enough fuel and that cylinder 1 was misfiring. Other than that he didn't know what to tell us but to go to a mechanic. Let me tell you that was NO help at all except tell us what we already knew. We always have worked on our cars even though that is not our trade! Let me back up for a second a couple of years ago we had AAMCO replace the transmission and they said their machine was saying our EGR valve needed replacing but that they didn't fix those. Like I said no obvious problems so we didn't replace it. Now to last week it starting the stumbling and/or jerking, remembering the EGR code and researching it, it seemed to be our problem. Hubby went to change out the EGR valve and cracked the EGR tube! Went back to AZ and they didn't even know which part he was talking about and said we need to go to the dealer to replace that tube but he could try some Quick Steel in the mean time to patch the tube. We put the QS on last night and also the EGR valve. The CEL is still off since we replaced the valve last night. Test drive last night and it was good to go. Today it is back to stumbling and a really bad burnt fish smell(this is new) is the best way to describe it.
I want to note also that our brake light/ABS light have been on forever also with no obvious reason either.
Hope I gave enough info for you to help.
Wanted to add what we have tried other than replace the EGR valve. Fuel filter, spark plugs, air filters.
Christina
(This post was edited by Erivera6 on Oct 19, 2010, 12:48 PM)
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Sidom
Veteran
/ Moderator
Oct 19, 2010, 7:37 PM
Post #2 of 24
(12600 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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Actually I'm going to have to give AZ a thumbs up on this one......They did exactly what they were suppose to do..... They told you what codes you have... No more, no less. They are not trained or tooled to diagnose a car and shouldn't try based off pulling codes..... We hear of them suggesting truck loads of parts & sensor based off of a code and then unfortunately the folks wind up here with the same problem & a lighter wallet.
One example would be a P0401 on Fords, Insufficient EGR flow.... a common mistake is to change out the EGR valve without checking out the DPFE sensor which will set that code a lot on Fords.....EGR valves do go bad, so hopefully yours was bad but it takes time for the moniter to run so you aren't out of the woods yet on the EGR code.
As far as the misfire goes, what you could do would be to do all the maintenance stuff that is overdue. If the plugs & wires haven't been changed now would be a good time to take care of that, change out the filters as well. On this one I would recommend cleaning the Mass Air Flow sensor with the correct cleaner. A dirty MAF won't give you a misfire but can set lean codes and create a stumbling problem...
If the misfire is still there after this, you may want to take it in to be checked. There isn't any maintenance parts left that should be changed due to mileage and what is left is expensive, you really don't want to be guessing....
The fish smell is probably the glue on the EGR tube, those get very hot. That needs to be fixed properly as soon as possible......
(This post was edited by Sidom on Oct 19, 2010, 7:38 PM)
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Erivera6
User
Oct 20, 2010, 3:37 AM
Post #3 of 24
(12591 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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We have already changed the spark plugs, and air filters plus the fuel filter. We didn't change the wires so that probably would be a good thing to change. I did finally find the EGR tube online so we will be replacing that. Thanks for the heads up on the MAF.
Thanks for the input and suggestions.
Christina
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zmasterflex
User
Oct 23, 2010, 5:42 PM
Post #4 of 24
(12565 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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I have the same car with all of your above problems. The likely cause of your stumbling is the fuel pump located in your gas tank under the car. I got mine out by lifting the car onto cinderblocks the whole thing took me 3-4 hours (drain your tank first). Test your pump by testing your fuel pressure if it drops while idling thats your pump. Its possible that your stumbling is caused by a bad MAF sensor but I think those usually send out P0174 and p0171 lean codes.
As for your brake light, I cant post links on this website but if you google this problem you find a website that clearly explains the whole thing a-z they tried to force Ford into some sort of recall. The problem stems from the pressure switch thats located on the bottom of master cylinder that leaks fluid. The fluid wicks down the wires there to the electronics and causes computer problems in some cars in particular speedometer and odometer innaccuraccies. Another concern is the corrossion in the ABS module in some of these vehicles its located under the car susceptible to mud and gravel. good luck
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Sidom
Veteran
/ Moderator
Oct 23, 2010, 10:36 PM
Post #6 of 24
(12549 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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Yes that can be frustrating changing parts and still have the same problem. MAFs aren't cheap. I would really suggest holding off on changing out any more parts unless you can confirm they are bad.....
It sounds like you might be limited in what you can test and what you can't. In your early post you mentioned changing some plugs & filters and thats fine, this is something that does need to be changed at recommend intervals and while there isn't intervals on wires if there is high miles on them or they're oil soaked it wouldn't be a bad idea. A MAF or other sensors or modules might never have to be changed, for the entire life of the vehicle.
What I usually suggest when someone doesn't have all the diagnostic tools at their disposal is to check out what they can with what they have, take care of any maintenance and after that the best course would probably be to spend the $100 and let a shop with the correct tools find the problem. If you add up what you've spent so far it probably exceeds what a diag at a shop would cost..
A poster just mentioned a similar problem he had and a way to check it and this could be your problem or it might not be. There are 100s of different things that could cause this.
I had said earlier you can't diagnose by pulling codes. A code just tells you what system is being affect but not what's causing the problem but it does narrow the field on where you should look. So far I haven't even see any specifics codes yet and it's possible to have a problem that doesn't set a code.
So this is where were at right now you have a jerking problem but we have no idea if it's cause by fuel, spark, a mechanical problem, an electrical problem....This problem could literally be coming from anywhere
If I was in the 80 to 90% range that I knew your problem then taking a chance at changing a part as oppose to having to pay a diag wouldn't be so bad and maybe worth a shot.....
Right now I have nothing to go on so the best advise I can give it to get it checked out......These parts are way to expensive to be guessing.
Just so there is no confusion. AZ & other parts stores don't do diagnostics, they pull codes and guess at the problem. No offense to the people that work there but if they had the proper training and skill to do diagnostic work.......They wouldn't be working there...
(This post was edited by Sidom on Oct 23, 2010, 10:41 PM)
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Erivera6
User
Oct 24, 2010, 5:17 AM
Post #7 of 24
(12541 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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We are at the same conclusion to just take it in tomorrow and have a diagnostic done on it.
Thank you for all of the help though. 
Christina
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Sidom
Veteran
/ Moderator
Oct 24, 2010, 2:12 PM
Post #8 of 24
(12538 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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Good luck and let us know what you find out.....Hopefully it's something that is too bad.....
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Erivera6
User
Oct 26, 2010, 11:59 AM
Post #9 of 24
(12524 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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OK so it's still at the shop but I called to get an update. They told me that the machine gave the codes for a Vacuum leak and also one for the throttle bodymotor. They couldn't find the vacuum leak and they cleaned the throttle body motor?? They say it's doing fine for them but then I asked about the burning smell. He says well we didn't smell anything and I told him well you need to go drive it longer. So they are driving it again but basically want me to bring it home and see what happens. He did say the smell could be the catalytic converter. The smell though is burning rubber and fish. Weird I know but even our kids ask why does the car smell like burned fish. I have read that the catalytic converter smells like rotten eggs or sulfur. It does not smell like that.
That's the status so far. If it is the Catalytic converter, what do you think my estimated cost will be.
Oh another question how is that when we took it to AZ the codes they got were not enough fuel and also that cylinder #2 was misfiring??
Christina
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Erivera6
User
Oct 26, 2010, 1:56 PM
Post #10 of 24
(12522 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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OK so I have the van back and it's not fixed. They don't know what's wrong with it. So I guess it isn't always the best bet to just take it in. Beyond frustrated! I thought the codes told them exactly what is wrong?!?!
christina
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 26, 2010, 2:45 PM
Post #11 of 24
(12518 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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No, the codes don't tell you exactly what is wrong. The codes supply specific data that the tech has to interpret and perform pinpoint tests to determine the cause. It doesn't sound like those guys have any idea what they are doing. If you just pick the cheapest place to get it checked, that's what you end up with. If the problem is not intermittent, it can be resolved.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Erivera6
User
Oct 26, 2010, 3:07 PM
Post #12 of 24
(12510 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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They were actually recommended by 3 people b/c we wanted to avoid those problems.
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Erivera6
User
Oct 26, 2010, 4:24 PM
Post #14 of 24
(12496 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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New symptom: OverDrive light is blinking!
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Oct 26, 2010, 4:26 PM
Post #15 of 24
(12494 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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Transmission codes.........
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Erivera6
User
Oct 26, 2010, 4:34 PM
Post #16 of 24
(12486 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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The mileage odometer is not working either!
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Erivera6
User
Oct 26, 2010, 5:00 PM
Post #17 of 24
(12482 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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Odometer and A/C stopped as well!!
Edited to add: A year ago a fuse kept blowing and the A/C and odometer would stop working, so we just put in a bigger fuse and it fixed it until now I'm guessing. Not sure if this will help but the (RED) brake light and (YELLOW) ABS light have been on for a while too.
We are trying to get this van to last another year!
(This post was edited by Erivera6 on Oct 26, 2010, 5:16 PM)
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Erivera6
User
Nov 20, 2010, 8:39 AM
Post #18 of 24
(12404 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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UPDATE:
Still NOT fixed! We did figure out the smell, it was the Quicksteel that we put on the EGR tube so we replaced the tube. We changed out spark plug wires. So to recap the "symptoms":
Rough idle and jerky at spots of acceleration.
Things we have tried in order to fix the problem:
- spark plugs
- spark plug wires
- fuel injector cleaner put into gas tank
- MAF sensor
- EGR sensor
- EGR tube
- Fuel Filter
- Air filters
- smoke test to look for vacuum leak
I think that is all so far. My dad had come up from FL a couple of weeks ago to look at and we actually unhooked the EGR until our new tube came so the old one would not heat up and smell to high heavens. The CEL was on again after we turned it off. We replaced the wires which were bad so when the CEL came on again we took it back to AZ to read the codes and it gave the(I wrote them down but can't find the actual numbers) ones for EGR( was unplugged so we knew that), Lean bank 1 and Lean bank 2.
So that is where we are at. My dad suggested have AZ test the TPS. On their site it says they can test that while it's on the car.
Give me what you got please
Christina
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 20, 2010, 9:27 AM
Post #19 of 24
(12401 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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The people at AutoZone are part time sales clerks or
mechanic wannabes" and not technicians in any way. All they want to do is sell parts so I wouldn't take a bit of technical advise from them.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Erivera6
User
Nov 20, 2010, 9:45 AM
Post #20 of 24
(12397 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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Actually they have never wanted to sell a part they always say take it to a mechanic. I was just making a point that their site says they can test parts while still on the car.
Christina
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
Nov 20, 2010, 9:51 AM
Post #21 of 24
(12394 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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Sure, any good tech can test a TPS in the car. That doesn't mean that clerk will know how to do it correctly, since wiring is different for every car. Not all TPS's work the same way either.
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We offer help in answering questions, clarifying things or giving advice but we are not a substitute for an on-site inspection by a professional.
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Sidom
Veteran
/ Moderator
Nov 20, 2010, 9:08 PM
Post #22 of 24
(12386 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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*sigh*
I think I'm explaining this wrong...... Let me put it another way.
In the automotive world there are basically 2 types of diags, easy ones & hard ones.
Easy ones almost anyone can do, a sensor fails, sets a code, sensor gets replaced and the problem is solved. Those guys at AZ rock! The computer didn't tell you want the problem was, it just set a code for that circuit and by chance the main sensor in the circuit was the problem....
Then there is the hard one. Either no codes are set or the code that is set, the sensor in that circuit isn't the problem. You can change that sensor 100 times and it won't fix the problem or clear the code. This is where you need to be able to test the systems and find a fault. If you don't have the tools or experience you need to take it to a shop that can find it.... No parts store is going to be able track this problem down.
At this point I'm leary about even suggesting things to test because I'm worried you'll just go out & replace them. If I threw that list of parts that you've posted at a van without fixing anything, the customer & me would probably be throwing blows in the parking lot......seriously.
I had an older GM in today that between 2 shops had almost a grand worth of parts installed on it and it and still had the same problem. It's only problem was a crank sensor wire that was intermittently hitting the EGR tube. Some of these problems can be a PITA to find & I just happened to get lucky.....
PLEASE.....Find a capable shop that is good in electrical to find your problem and stop ripping yourself off.....
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MR FIX IT
New User
May 1, 2011, 11:49 AM
Post #23 of 24
(12104 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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Have the catalytic converter checked the bad smell is a sigh of one being stopped up. My daughter has this same van it is notorious for your problem. I replace the coil pack and the missing went away for a while, it came back so just for the heck of it I unplugged the injector connection and plugged them back in and it seem to solve that problem. I have had to change the coil pack twice it cracks on the bottom between the towers and lets the fire go to ground causing the miss. Also the computer control module is behind the glove compartment and is plugged in and hangs out under the windshield grill on the passenger side which allows water gets on the connection (very very poor design), I took a 1 liter cola bottle and cut is longways and covered the connector so rain could not get on the connection. It seems to have solved the problem.
Good luck
Tomigun
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Hammer Time
Ultimate Carjunky
/ Moderator
May 1, 2011, 12:06 PM
Post #24 of 24
(12100 views)
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Re: Stumbling 2002 Windstar
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MR FIX IT, This thread is nearly a year old. Please check the dates before posting.
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