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Olds won't start/ can't find codes
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jayeffel
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Jun 7, 2008, 8:04 AM
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Olds won't start/ can't find codes
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1988 Oldsmobile Delta 88 Royale, 3.8 6 cyl.:
After driving to and from work Thursday with no apparent problems, the car would not start later that evening. Battery is about two - three months old and had good charge. The Service Engine light did light up earlier. I checked all I could without diagnostic tools; fluid levels, electric connections, etc. Nothing seems out of place or low.
The radio antenna motor is faulty now, won't stop running unless I remove the fuse (which also powers the chime, and part of the radio). Don't think that would interfere with starting circuits. I got a key to short the code module and a book to read/interpret the codes but cannot get the codes to show up either.
I checked the battery, good; tried jumping the battery to no avail. Tried starting in park and neutral. All fuses look okay - any other besides what are in the fuse box nest to the steering column?
(This post was edited by jayeffel on Jun 7, 2008, 9:32 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 7, 2008, 12:40 PM
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Re: Olds won't start/ can't find codes
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This is to say the engine cranks but doesn't start - right? Spark and fuel present?
T
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jayeffel
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Jun 7, 2008, 7:20 PM
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Re: Olds won't start/ can't find codes
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When I turn the key to ignition the oil, amp, and seatbelt lights light up; but nothing else happens. The battery is fully charged per a battery/alternator tester. Cannot check the alternaitr with that tester since the engine must run for that tool. Jumping the battery did not help.
I do not know if there is a spark or fuel. The carworked fine a few hours prior, hard to believe something happened that fast. I did try to find access to the radio antenna motor which is not working - the motor runs but does not retract the antenna. I did move a plastic next to the firewall on the passengers side of engine compartment but did not move anything else; it may be possible that I bumped a connection that came loose, but not sure.
It may be the starter motor stopped on a dead spot. Actually have not had the time to check as much as I want yet. The belt is okay, fuses okay, fluid levels okay.
When reading the codes is it thje service engine light that flashed the codes? I tried to find any codes but no signal appeared. Joel
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 7, 2008, 7:32 PM
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Re: Olds won't start/ can't find codes
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Ok - so starter motor isn't doing anything. I have no clue what you did to test the battery but voltage alone isn't enough right now - a load test would do. Jump didn't work and motor to the antennae runs on - gotta unplug that as that's a problem.
Right now there may be a low charge on battery (very low) and or a bad cable connection such that a jump didn't help. Try that again as the GM battery terminals don't get a good connection many times.
With interior light on try to start the motor. If the light goes out this is a power problem - battery or connections. If that light will go out then any codes would be lost also so that's what I think this is so far and the antennae is the fault causing the trouble.
It could be more but I'd keep checking to see why is doesn't even crank which it should be able to do regardless of fuel or spark problems - it would crank so begin with that,
T
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jayeffel
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Jun 8, 2008, 9:31 AM
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Re: Olds won't start/ can't find codes
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The tester I used is one purchased at Advanced Auto, connecting it to the battery terminals with engine of shows battery charge; connecting it to the terminals with engine on tells the state of the alternator and charging circuit. The battery show 12.5 VDC. but since I can't start the engine the other function is not available.
I guess I wasn't paying attention to what I observed, turning the key does cause the starter motor to engage but no start. It is very hot and I have another vehicle to use, so I will work on this car as time and temperature allow. Where it is parked is difficult to check underneath to check loose wires etc.
Is there a way to disconnect the antenna motor and allow the radio to function? I can remove the fuse to the antenna motor, but it also stops the radio. How do I gain access the the antenna motor? Know where it is but can't figure best way to it without removing too much. I don't think the antenna motor was running very long before I noticed it and removed the fuse. It would run even when turning off engine and removing key. Thanks for help, Joel
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Tom Greenleaf
Ultimate Carjunky
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Jun 8, 2008, 11:10 AM
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Re: Olds won't start/ can't find codes
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alright - you really only can test voltage which isn't the story the way you are testing. The alt would have to be turning for more than diode tests perhaps on it so that means nothing for now.
The engine doesn't crank. It takes amps of 12v power to crank the engine. A remote door bell has a 12v battery that won't start a car - get what I mean?
Jumping it takes out the battery condition IF and only IF you have a real solid connection. GM battery bolts just have a 5/16th (8mm is same) head to grab and the plastic covered washer like cable ends at the battery don't get the best of a connection with an eyelet end that corrodes and doesn't get power properly along to stater's solonoin (on top of starter on this car) and the ground cable must work well from battery to engine block - note that then must connect to body metal for it to be common ground for the other things in the car.
This is what's needed to crank the car. It doesn't matter whether there's a belt, alternator, computer (in this vintage) or anything else it would crank. When it will do that or make some symptoms in trying we can then find out if it runs and test why not but it must crank.
_________________________________
The antennae is capable of killing the charge on the battery so that's got to go. Battery might have put up with a low charge too many times and hurt it or destroyed it as it's not designed to do full cycles of charged to discharged frequently. This body I haven't done it to but you probably can undo the antennae from top so that it drops into nowhere land inside fender, unplug it entirely and secure the ends. With original antennae wire or one from a universal kit (cheap stuff) just add a solid mast one - kit should include funny spacers to allow angle of fender to make a straight antennae. NBD! That stuff at Radio Shack, WalMart and all those type places or go to an auto stereo place pay twice as much and get exactly what you need at one stop and no hassles.
Little light bulbs will still light up but items with a big drain will not work with low amps available. When a connection is the problem the HUGE power needs of a starter motor will try to suck all power thru a lousy connection and all other item - like I mentioned a dome light will shut off - computer would reset as if battery was disconnected - other memory in items lost.
Whatever it takes get the car hooked up to a know battery or jump with cables strong enough to do it if there was no battery. FYI - my road call jumpers cost me $80 bucks 25 years ago they are so strong. It matters! The cheap ones frequently fail especially with the GM connections,
T
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jayeffel
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Jun 9, 2008, 9:03 AM
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Re: Olds won't start/ can't find codes
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Tom:
I found how to access the radio antenna without resorting to cutting torch; but not much simpler! I looked for wires to the antenna but cannot locate them easily.
So, I once more attempted to jump the battery being sure connections were good, nothing. The starter engaged but nothing else happened.
I wanted to see if manually moving the antenna would do anything, so put the the fuse in and gently pushed the antenna down. The on/off control on the radio allowed the antenna to be raised, but not down. So I again pushed it down. Since I wasn't getting anywhere, and it is over 90 degrees at 11:30AM, I decided to try later. I removed the fuse but removed the ECM Module fuse in error, so I replaced it and removed the correct fuse (to the antenna motor); I noticed the service engine light came on, so tried the starter and the engine started okay! With my little tester the alternator shows normal output.
I still want to change the antenna motor and the radio itself-the tape player doesn't work. I'll see what transpires, thanks for your assistance.
I think what may have occurred with fuses is when I checked them I did not get the one seated fully and it was the one for the ECM module, may have interfered with starting somehow. Joel
(This post was edited by jayeffel on Jun 9, 2008, 10:25 AM)
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Tom Greenleaf
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Jun 9, 2008, 11:02 AM
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Re: Olds won't start/ can't find codes
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Ok: Sounds like you are up and running again so if it's running well get rid of that antennae. If you want a power antennae in this old car and an original used won't be any good and new ones were nasty expensive. The solid mast universals work find and are dirt cheap.
Not sure what is up the the engine light but I'd reset it and see if a code reappears. 88 wasn't so high tech - it only monitored so much. Does this 3.8 still use a distributor and cap. I worked on a couple that were the 98s MY 1985 I think. Don't know what year they went to coil packs. Didn't have many troubles with them so don't have a long list of likely anythings with them.
Tape players just don't take time well. Rubber belts give out and hopefully you don't have a tape stuck in it and the radio still works. You can get CD changers that just run thru a blank station # if the radio works - it just goes in the antennae in line without messing with the whole car.
Remember with the starter that the cables have to be good at all ends or it will screw up,
T
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jayeffel
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Jun 13, 2008, 12:13 PM
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Re: Olds won't start/ can't find codes
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Tom: I finally got to check the ECM codes, the only codes that appear are "12" which is the initial code; then "63" which according to the Haynes manual would mean there is; 1. an EGR system fault or 2. MAP sensor voltage out of range, probably high, or 3. cruise control system problem, It could be any one, or I guess a combination of all since the one codes applies to all.
I have no idea how long that code has been stored, I cleared the ECM memory and will check it again soon. Thanks again for your willingness to help. Joel
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